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How Xiongnu called themselves?

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Sarmat View Drop Down
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How Xiongnu called themselves?
    Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 22:38
We can see, Barbar, that there is a clear and logical explanation for the origin of the term Tungus from their own language, while your "swine" hypo is already doubted my most of the participants of this particular thread.
 
I don't need to answer your questions about Turkic words for pigs because these great animals hardly have any relation to Huns or Evenks, except in the wild imagination of some Chinese historians.
 
As for Russian guys, they didn't stick with the name Tungus for ages, but use the term Evenk now.
 
I also gave you this particular citation since you can very easily check this point online. You might not particularly like wording how the author put the relation between "donkan" and "tungus," but there is the full number of other books where the historians put it in another way, which might be more appropriate for you.
 
I also gave the Ket language hypo as an example of IMO "logical" hypothetical thinking, unlike the "swine" theory.
 
I already gave you a huge list of publications on the problem and I suggest you to study this question more in depth before repeating what you already said.
 
The fact is that there is no any proof that Donghu were named swines by ancient Turks, there is no definite proof that Donghu were Tungusic and there is no definite proof that the name Tungus originates from Turkic word for swine.
 
I understand that you may not like my explanation. This is your right. But you have to admit that the explanation you propose is only one from the number of the others which actually seem to be far more logical and natural (at least for some people). 
 
I don't think you can persuade me by repeating again that the word Tungus is very similar to the Turkic word for swine and thus "Tungus" originated from that word.
 
If you want to keep the discussion constructive and fruitful please switch to another point.
 
I already said that "swine" explanatation of Tungus is not persuasive for me and not only for me but for the whole number of serious historians whose names I already gave you.
 
You may still think differently, but it won't change my perseption unless you give something more valid to support your arguments.
 
Thank you


Edited by Sarmat12 - 06-Feb-2008 at 02:40
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 08:22
I needed YOUR explanation Seko. Thanks.
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 12:56
Well, sarmat.  I hope we don't have any misunderstandings between each other.
 
My objection to your points started when you claimed Tungustic people have nothing to do with the ancient Donghu. 
 
Do Tungustic people call themselves Tungus? NO. They have their own tribal names.  It is quite clear the term came from others.
 
Do they generally refer themselves as Donki (Donkun), you have to give me the proof. Instead searching from their languages some words which is closer to TUNGUS, just to overturn the commonly accepted theory. Even if they generally refer themselves as Donki/Donkun, one should be given reasonable explanation as for this term's etymology, and why this term, instead of TUNGUS, isn't used?  
 
Only one guy suggested "People of Taiga" or "people of Hills". Which one? Are all the Tungustic people living in the same geographical condition?
 
Actually there is no any "swine" theory,as you labled. 
 
Fact is Yaquts call them Tungus, (not related to the swine), related to ancient Donghu, ie the eastern neighbours of the Turkic people ( as always known to them as such). Donghu is only the general term.  Yes, they might be wrong to call them Tungus. It happens. You Russians call Chinese "Hitayiski". Hiyat-hitan-qitan weren't Chinese, instead a mongolic tribe. However there was also some relation. Qitan before migrating to the west built LIAO dynasty in China. Tungus people are not locals  of northen siberia.
 
This is the common theory as many of the historians and encyclopedias believed.
 
"swine" in Turkic is just a side effect of the term Donghu. For DONG, the only etymological explanation can be  Chinese "east".  It is also consistent with Turkic encounter with this animal quite later period. They gave the name of their eastern foes to this animal. It's simple as that.
 
Discussion of TUNGUS indeed very important for this thread, as it can provide another proof for the Xiongnu calling themselves as "Oghur/Ghur".
 
Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2008 at 20:40

Dear barbar, I'm very grateful for your positive attitude.

I just want to comment on your point.

Unfortunately we can't say that that Tungus are related to Donghu is a fact.

Yes, even if I hypothetically accept that Yakuts called Tungus meaning "swines" in Turkic and this is the only version of possible origin of this term, I could accept it only for Evenks, because we can't prove that the same name was used by Turks for Donghu.

You said that Donghu were the Eastern neighbors of Turks, yes this is correct, but I just think that they were Mongolic but not Tungisic and it's proved by the generally accepted chronology of certain tribes origin i.e. Donghu-Shiwei-Mongols. Thus we can conclude that Donghu were a Proto-Mongolic tribe, since they were ancestors of Mongols. Is there a traditional Chinese chronology which also put Jurchens or Evenks as originated from Donghu? Can you refer me to such sources?

Now, what I meant when I talked about the Russian sources which put the relation between Donkan and Tungus in another way. Those sources actually say that Tungus was also used as a self designation for Evenks in the 18th century and they also explain how the original Donkan transferred to Tungus in Russian and Yakut language. It's all explained by the linguistic means in terms that some certain sounds of Evenk language were pronounced differently in Yakut and other languages which resulted in Tungus.

Yes, you are right Russian people call China Kitai, the name which we took from Kitan, also called Kara-Kitai. In fact, another name for China in English which is Cathay also originates from Kitan.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2008 at 21:08
Tungus people's ancestors were  DONGYI in Chinese chronicles. However Jurchen can be related to Xianpei (Aka Donghu) according to  some historians. The seperation wasn't that clear cut, it's normal since the two groups mixed to quite certain degree. Mongolic became more distinct mainly due to their Nomadic life style. Genetic studies also showing the significant similarities between Tungustic Evenk and Mongolic Buryat.  
 
Mongolic people weren't always in between Turkic and Tungustic. Actually some Turkic tribes also lived just west to the Tungustic tribes.
 
BTW, Tungustic people really had a lot to do with PIG.
 
Houhanshu, zhuan 85: 
 

挹娄,古肃慎之国也。处于山林之间,土气极寒,常为穴居,以深为贵,大家至接九梯。好养豕,食其肉,衣其皮。冬以豕膏涂身,厚数分,以御风寒。夏则裸袒,以尺布蔽其前后。其人臭秽不洁,作厕于中,圜之而居。自汉兴以后,臣属夫馀。

 

Yilou, ancient Sushen state.  In the mountain forest, very cold. Stay in the caves, better to have deep ones. Family links to nineth decendant. Good in breeding PIGs, eat the meat, and wear the skin as clothes. In winter use the grease of the pig on their bodies, make it quite thick to protect themselves from the cold wind. In summer naked with a piece of cloth to cover the front and back. They are smelly and dirty, live around the toilet in the middle. After Han became strong, subjugated to Fuyu.

 

 
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  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2009 at 16:09
Originally posted by Sarmat

 
You simply won't be able to find any sources which say that Mongols are Tungusic, those are 2 different groups of people.
 
 
 
I may have the answer.It's from several Chinese-language books I read on ancient nomadic tribes of northern China referenced Russian sources extensively studied indigenous peoples of Manchuria as Russia Empire expanded farther east into Siberia during Qing dynastic period in China.
 
Russians learned of the word " Donghu " referring to Mongol nomadic tribes by the Chinese.The original pronunciation was then rendered with approximated spelling as in " Tungus ".It's just a corrupted spelling of " Donghu ' for those tribes later categorized as Tungusic.
 
 
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