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Killabee 
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 Topic: Arabic Sript vs. Latin Script
Posted: 28-Nov-2007 at 00:02 |
Originally posted by DayI
Look at Japan or China, did they changed their script, banned their previous cultural elements to be powerfull as many western country's are?
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My two cents:
Actually China did simplify their script during the Cultural Revolution in '60s. There were some talk that PRC Government want to further "simplify" it by romanization of Chinese character but they faced strong opposition even within the Communist party.Traditional Chinese script is only preserved in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau while they have no problem reading ancient Chinese books, mainland Chinese youth are having difficulty to read them because they do not recognize many Traditional Chinese characters.
Both Japanese script (Hiragana and Katakana) are derived from Chinese Calligraphy. Chinese characters (Kanji) are used on daily basis as well along with Hiragana and Katagana. Unlike the Korean and Vietnamese who underwent de-sinization in their written language, Japanese are proud of keeping and incorporating Chinese Characters into their written language.
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Killabee
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Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 23:31 |
I think Indonesian and Malaysian also changed the script from Arabic script to Latin but since the root of Islam is not long ,so it didn't create a turmoil like the Turk faced. According to Wikipedia, there is currently a revival of Arabic Script in both countries.
The Uyghur Turk in Xinjiang province of China are still using Arabic Script as far as I know.
Edited by Killabee - 06-Dec-2007 at 23:31
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Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 07:20 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
| Al_Jassas
Since you claim that the Turkish language and identity did not suffer from the change then I will ask the next very simple question: Has all the Arabic script turkish literature been translated into modern Turkish and is it available for the common Turkish person? If the answer is yes then the argument is completely invalid for Turkish but if no, then you must admit that an integral part of the Turkish heritage is lost. |
Ofcourse, even the books written by the founder of the state was written using the Arabic script. The major works of literature are all translated because afterall its a script, its not like translating from a language to another. Todays Turks have acess to their forefathers literatures.
However, there has also been a loss.
For example, a Turk who cannot understand the Arabic script cannot read even what is on their grandfathers tombstones.
However, if they knew the Arab script they could understand it.
This is why I feel its important to have knowledge of the script, it should be taught in state education. Even though most important materials are easily translated there is so much that is not significant on a large scale but important on a pesonal level that would be understood better, it also is enriching to have knowledge of different scripts.
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The Bosnian Arabic script is similar to the Turkish one, but it has been out of use for decades now, too. I believe it ended being used before or around the time that Ataturk's reforms. 
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Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 07:21 |
Edited by es_bih - 07-Dec-2007 at 07:22
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Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 07:31 |
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btw the Turkey - Bosna match for the EC 08 qualifier was very friendly :), and here too Turks have an affinity towards Bosnians that certainly didn't change over centuries
now on to the topic
Yes we should emphasize script learning more to adopt it as a secondary script especially in cases such as this. In recent years there are a lot of Bosnians that can read it, including also Turkish and Persian. A lot of literature in Bosnia was produced in Persian in the 18-20th cts.
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erkut
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Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 10:29 |
Hello Al Jassas;
First, yes its worth it. Latin script is easier then arabic one.
Second, we didnt lost anything. Everybody could learn Ottoman script in Turkey. Mostly literature and history students learns Ottoman script in universities, also there are many translations of old scripts.
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bgturk
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Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 11:11 |
Originally posted by Al Jassas
My main goal is not whether Arabic script is superious to latin or vise vesa or whether Turkey should return to Arabic script or Farsi and Arabic should ditch it. The main question is: Is it worth it?
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I think one of the main reasons to replace the Arabic script was in order to reduce illiteracy among the population. Latin was simpler, and better suited to express the nuances of sounds in the Turkish language. I do not see any benefit for Turkey staying with the Arabic script.
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 12:32 |
Well, this issue was discussed before and I'm pasting my older words here:
Originally posted by kotumeyil
I can read Ottoman script, too. There are a few dimensions of the Turkish language reform:
1.Turkey decided to integrate with the western world. It's similar to the way that some ex-soviet states changed Kyrillic script with the Latin one. This is the main reason of the script change.
2. Arabic script has many consonants and less vowels than Turkish. This was a problem for the litracy rate. Ex:if او comes at the beginning of the word it can be read as av,ev,o,,u,
Latin script is easier in reading and writing in Turkish because it has enough vowels for Turkish and the Turkish version of it is read as it is written. It helped the increase of litracy. If I'm not wrong, the litracy level of Turks was under %5 before the script change. Of course the Ottoman script wasn't the only reason. The government was inadequate to provide enough education for the population.
3. Spoken language (especially Anatolian) didn't change much. I can easily read and understand the Ottoman folk tales with very rare use of dictionary. On the other hand, I can understand less than half of the Ottoman formal documents and the elit literature of the Ottomans. Also I listened to some tape recordings dating 1920s and I could understand them, too. But not the same for palace music lyrics... |
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[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 12:36 |
Originally posted by kotumeyil
can read in both scripts, though I can read much better in Latin script.
1. This was a political choice in order to get closer with the western world.
2. Arabic script was used for a very long time before the republican era, but the literacy rate was %5-6 in 1914. It was mostly used by the elite. The usage of the Arabic script is very detailed and the wrong usage was ridiculed. In the Arabic script, the words cannot be read as it is written you have to memorize the writing of the word. However in the Latin script, Turkish is read as it is written. Of course the Arabic script could be modified but there was a big reaction against any change in the traditional script.
3. Another difficulty was that Arabic letters are connected to each other and have different shapes at the beginnin, in the middle and at the end of the word. Also, in the traditional version, most of the vowels aren't written so there's the possibility of 8 vowels for each interval. Of course the Arabic script could be modified but و was used instead of o, , u,
ا was used instead of a and e; and ى was used instead of and i.
Also او was used instead of o, , u, , av, ev at the beginning of the word
and اى was used instead of ay, ey, , i at the beginning of the word
Changing this traditional usage could also create problems.
4. The elit language was the Ottoman language dominated by Arabic and Persian words but the popular language was Turkish and this was the reason that literacy was confined to the elits.
5. You know that Arabic script include a lot of dots and hareke signs and if this script would be modified to Turkish (there were already modified consonants in the alphabet like چandژ ) there would be many detailed signs,too. A lot of dots, extra signs, etc... However, there was a campaign for the objective of increasing the literacy rate very fastly. So, the Latin script that has rare details was preferred.
But, in the final analysis the main reason was to be integrated with the western world....
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Spartakus
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Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 12:43 |
I must thank Ataturk for replacing the Arabic script with Latin, thus making easier to learn Trke. 
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Lmprs
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Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 12:49 |
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I believe kotumeyil has concluded this issue. Hopefully we'll not be bothered further by people who think they know what's best for us.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 10:35 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Indeed Malizai, ideologically, Pakistan is much more of a successor to the Ottomans than the Republic of Turkey.
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In the light of this week's news, that isn't saying much for the Ottomans.
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azimuth
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Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 02:54 |
Originally posted by kotumeyil
Originally posted by kotumeyil
can read in both <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN>s, though I can read much better in Latin <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN>.
1. This was a political choice in order to get closer with the western world.
2. Arabic <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN> was used for a very long time before the republican era, but the literacy rate was %5-6 in 1914. It was mostly used by the elite. The usage of the Arabic <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN> is very detailed and the wrong usage was ridiculed. In the Arabic <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN>, the words cannot be read as it is written you have to memorize the writing of the word. However in the Latin <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN>, Turkish is read as it is written. Of course the Arabic <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN> could be modified but there was a big reaction against any change in the traditional <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN>.
3. Another difficulty was that Arabic letters are connected to each other and have different shapes at the beginnin, in the middle and at the end of the word. Also, in the traditional version, most of the vowels aren't written so there's the possibility of 8 vowels for each interval. Of course the Arabic <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN> could be modified but <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: TR; mso-fareast-: TR; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">و was used instead of o, , u, </SPAN>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: TR; mso-fareast-: TR; mso-bidi-: AR-SA"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: TR; mso-fareast-: TR; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">ا</SPAN> was used instead of a and e; and<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: TR; mso-fareast-: TR; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">ى</SPAN> was used instead of and i.</SPAN>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: TR; mso-fareast-: TR; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">Also <SPAN style="mso-ansi-: TR">او was used instead of o, , u, , av, ev at the beginning of the word</SPAN></SPAN>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: TR; mso-fareast-: TR; mso-bidi-: AR-SA"><SPAN style="mso-ansi-: TR">and <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: TR; mso-fareast-: TR; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">اىwas used instead of ay, ey, , i at the beginning of the word</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: TR; mso-fareast-: TR; mso-bidi-: AR-SA"><SPAN style="mso-ansi-: TR"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: TR; mso-fareast-: TR; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">Changing this traditional usage could also create problems.</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>
4. The elit language was the Ottoman language dominated by Arabic and Persianwordsbut the popular language was Turkish and this was the reason that literacy was confined to the elits.
5. You know that Arabic <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN> include a lot of dots and hareke signs and if this <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN> would be modified to Turkish (there were already modified consonants in the alphabet like <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: TR; mso-fareast-: TR; mso-bidi-: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">چandژ) there would be many detailed signs,too. A lot of dots, extra signs, etc...</SPAN>However, there was a campaign for the objective of increasing the literacy rate very fastly. So, the Latin <SPAN =highlight>script</SPAN> that has rare details was preferred.
<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>But, in the final analysis the main reason was to be integrated with the western world....
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the #1 point is the only major reason mentioned above, the rest came after just for the sake of making more reasons lol.
another major reason is to get the population away from their religion and tradition ( which is also a political thing to get closer to the west)
sadly for many secularists it seems like the west wont fully accept you as one of them until you leave your Turkish language and off course insult your islamic history to show them how much you like the west.
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