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Romeo and Juliet... romantic???

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Seko View Drop Down
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Romeo and Juliet... romantic???
    Posted: 19-Nov-2007 at 21:07
I agree that the two of you are way too intelligent and above simple vices to allow your educated bickering get in the way of good sportmanship. So begone animosity and welcome enlightened conversation.
 
btw- don't let my interruption suggest anything but what it is. A simple reminder to let cool heads prevail.
 
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2007 at 21:26
The masses often barely understood the historological and classical signifigance of Shakespeare's works (which were, at times, bordering on the heretical- yet the astute masses at the time were unable to comprehend this)- what English peasant understood all of the classical (and, notably, not Christian) characters in A MidSummer Night's Dream? This, mind you, in the era of the Reformation where people whose religion was called into question often found themselves burned upon stakes, or beheaded. Elizabeth herself, as a champion of hard-line Protestantism, seemingly tolerated a lot of heretical (or, at least, a-Christian) works from her celebrated Playwright. I suspect that largely Shakespeare lived as long as he did because people were unable to grasp the true nature of his plays- the Storm (Act III) scene in King Lear is notable in so far as it portrays a world absolutely devoid of any divinity, where sin and virtue are both merely attributes or personal defects; if God exists in this play, why does Cordelia die at the end? The simple fact is that these subtle nuances were lost upon the contemporary audiences... they certainly did not grasp Shakespeare in the way we have come to recognize his greatness. I also feel that I ought to mention the fact that Shakespeare is the most highly literarily-analyzed of all writers in Western History, and that thousands upon thousands of noted critics, from Samuel Jonson to Thomas Coleridge to Matthew Arnold to John Ruskin (that just the English school, mind you, and certainly not representing the tip of iceberg, let alone the whole) have praised him as being quite possibly the greatest, and one of the most complex, writers of all time. Also, notably, Borges (who I mentioned before) called him the most complete example of a literary man in human history. But hey, what he hell do all of those insanely educated people know?  
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2007 at 21:31
Note- the fact that Shakespeare could appeal to the masses as well as to an intellectual elite is just another testament to his greatness. I'd say very few literary analysts would say that J.K. Rowling's sort of "mass appeal" would put her up there with the great writers of history. She is what I like to call "McLiterature;" easily consumable, lacking substance, and leaves a bad taste in one's mouth. 
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2007 at 21:39
Thank you Brian. I agree, especially with the point that a true masterpiece is one which can send to each one a message according to his education, knowledge, intellect. However, it's a huge difference between the message received by the erudite and the message received by the illiterate who saw it on the stage. 
 
I was also almost ready to appeal to my gymnasium and high school education but the literature I've studied was mostly non-English, however I believe the general criteria of appreciation, analysis and criticism must be common in most countries of the "western" world.
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2007 at 06:37
I couldn't have said it better, my friend. That is what makes true genius; when something only appeals to the masses, it is probably crap, or worse- NASCAR. When something only appeals to intellectuals, it is probably elitist, smarmy jibber-jabber- when something can appeal to both, and indeed, to all castes and classes, i has "classic" written all over it. Shakespeare is that way. Everyone can appreciate the fellow, and some can even truly understand him- but his last mark of literary greatness is that none can transcend him. 
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2007 at 08:46

Now that you said it, King Lear was staged also (haven't seen such a version, just read about it) with a happy end, with Cordelia marrying Edgar. I think this was to gain some "audience points" (this phenomenon happened also to Romeo and Juliet, I've seen scenarios where they lived happily ever after). If one expects from Shakespeare just a pleasant narrative, he might get dissappointed by some tragic ends like King Lear's. I am quite sure this was heatly debated by literary critics (as you have suggested, too), however, with Cordelia's death, I find Shakespeare's following closely the tragedy shaped by the illustrious playwrights of Ancient Greece. These are not stories of a classical struggle between good and evil with the triumph of the former.

On death and tragic ending there's much to say. For now let's say that they were not that uncommon (at least in a more general perspective on late Medieval/Renaissance literature, I do not know very well the literature of English Reformation and Restoration era). Death either was added for a purpose (to punish a character) or simply to wash away a character once his role in the opera was fulfilled bearing some kind of memento mori message.


Edited by Chilbudios - 20-Nov-2007 at 08:54
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2007 at 16:09
Very true. In fact, in earlier versions of Lear (pre-Shakespeare; the story is a old one) Cordelia does in fact survive. Her death in Shakespeare's rendition from (IIRC) Quarto 12 (forget which folio) is what I think makes that play the most successful tragic tragedy of all time. The final impression one is left with, wherein almost the cast expires, is that of an uncaring universe (not lost on the naturalists of the American Realist period, such as Crane [the Open Boat], London [to Build a Fire], Cather [Paul's case], etc.) where the earthly doings of man are utterly unaccounted for. This is of course wildly at odds with the prevailing Providential and PreDestinational Christian worldview of the time. Lear cannot exist as a morality tale (such as, say, Everyman) because not only are the evil characters punished with death, but also the only character with any moral virtue.
One can see the bastard son of Gloucester, Edmund (or was it Edgar?), trying to superimpose morality into the play numerous times; especially at the end with his hollow-ringing speech attributing sin to be the cause of his father's blindness and death (ironically, the 'sin' of which he speaks is that which led to his conception)- which cannot be true, as an alert audience would observe- and the general reception of his speech by the other characters is "Uh...?" One can thus see even the characters as rejecting the Christian mindset native to England at the time of the initial performances.

This sort of thing usually ended up with people being burned at the stake, mind you.

With Shakespeare, if you want a pleasant ending, go see one of the comedies. All of the tragedies are mind-bendingly black. I particularly like Othello, just for Iago (Coleridge called him the "motiveless malignity"). I don't think there has ever been so evil a character with so little explanation. Throughout the play, even though Iago functions as a sort of confidant to the audience, one never hears a valid explanation for his malice. Even at the end, when apprehended and threatened with torture, he refuses to speak- frustrating both the characters, and the audience as well. In my mind, Shakespeare exists almost as meta-theater; the man had it down to a science.
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