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Ancient Assyrian Tribal Names
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Immortal Guard
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Posts: 0 		  Quote surfer1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Assyrian Tribal Names
    Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 06:40
I am trying to find out if any research has been undertaken on the tribal names of the ethnic Assyrians (not subject peoples) prior to the fall of ancient Assyria.

They are probably mentioned in some works, but I have not come cross any clues as yet.

Suggestions or leads are welcomed.
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 11:28
Ironically, the Assyrians did not seem to bare tribal names.  They were an independent state since at least about 2020 BC, when they broke away from Ur III.   Whatever tribal affiliations they had at that time had been replaced by an Assyrian national identity in the same way that many of today's peoples identify themselves according to the name of their country.  The only thing that can be said is that the Assyrian population had Hurrian, Akkadian, and later, Amoritic background. 
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Posts: 937 		  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 13:13
It would help to define what you mean by "Assyrian" and "not subject" peoples" place-wise (and time-wise).

At the narrowest Asshur was a tribe/family according to Genesis

If you meant Assyria as northern Mesopotamia (incld (western Assyrian) Hanigalbat (Mitanni/Hurri)), and not neo-Assyrian empire subjects, then a list of tribes/peoples/lands/states/provinces might includ the following (note some are not actually Assyria but adjacent/neighbour to north)(east (Trans-Caucasia, etc)):

Asshur, Mitanni, Hurri, Hanigalbat, Marya, Amorites, Akkadians/Uri(-ki), Arameans, Subartu/Sumasti, Bit-Adini, Kurds, Nairi, Namri, Mannai, Nimrod (bible says he went to/bible calls it land of N), Urartu/Van, Harran (Genesis), Nahur (bible/Mari), Mari, Turukum, Bit-Agusi, Terqa, Hit, Hena, Hurrum, Gozan, Khaburatum/Habor, Yezidis, Padan/Pattana, Naharaim, Arraphkha, Kesed/Kasdim, Chaldeans, Pekod, Telassar, Lullubi, Leshan (Egyptian recs), Habiru/Sagaz, Suri/Syrians, Shuah, Gu-edin, An-edin?, Aratta, Kassites,

(Cimmerians, Togarmah, Tabal, Meshech, Macrones, Saspires (Herodotus), Ararat, Azzi, Alzi/Lazica, Hayasa,
Iberi, Albania, Colchi, Saca.)

Perhaps when you used the word ethnic you may alternatively/also meant modern ethnological/raciological labels/studies too like:
Armenoid/Assyrioid/Anatolian (1 of the 10 sub-races of Caucasoid/Europoid/White race/sub-species).
Eg: I not sure about Assyria but JR Baker says ancient Sumerians were Capelids and Mediterraneans with a few round-heads too.
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 23:36
It would help to define what you mean by "Assyrian" and "not subject" peoples" place-wise (and time-wise).
 
A-R, I think he made it quite clear what he meant.  We must bare in mind that many Aramaic tribes took up camp in the Assyrian home-country by about 1000 BC.  They were not considered "Assyrian" by the Assyrian kings themselves until they conquered them.  Assyria was not made "safe" from these tribes until about 900 BC.  It was only with the declaration of an Assyrian king (his name escapes me at the moment) to make the Aramaeans "his own" that the Aramaeans of the Assyrian Empire became citizens.  Hence, the "subject tribes" became "Assyrian".
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 08:28
Sharrukin
What you said is true, and what A-R said is also true. I am a Chaldean myself and I have studied the Chaldean history along with the Assyrian,Sumerian and Akkadian.
 
The King who is to be said "estabilished" the Assyrian Empire is known as Sargon 1 of the Akkadians.
 
The Chaldeans are said to come from the north as the Assyrians excisted. Now that is off topic Tongue but I will try and explain it from what I have understand.
 
 The Assyrian King Sargon did occupy mostly of the sumerian territories but in order to be called an assyrian you have to speak the language (which was a Semetic language, compare Hebrew,aramic,chaldean) along with that you have to somehow be seen in the eyes of the villagers/citizens as a "member" of the empire. Now this brings us back to the Chaldeans which occupied the Assyrian Empire for quite a time. After that the Chaldeans had a King named Nibulous or something like that which still was loyal to the Assyriens which still, many of the cities/villages in the area , helped them out to stay "assyrians". So in other words those who still was loyal to the former assyrian empire refused to take on a new life as a Chaldean which had different gods such as Marduk. But Nobilous didnt like his origin as much as people thought and gave more priviliges to the assyrians than the chaldeans. After that a war started and the citizens which still were chaldeans welcomed the Persian empror Cyrus to invade the empire.
 
This is what I have heard from a friend who works in a museum in Iraq, now I dont know its true or not but alot of it makes sense. I hope it gave you an answear to you question.
 
In Iraq today , people who are called "Assyrians" belong to a group of christians ( not Catholic,Protostant, Orthodox or anything) which has a own church. The Chaldeans are mostly Chatholics, Syrians (not as in a the country Syria! ) are mostly Orthodox but today there are Syrians who are Catholic!
 
Now what is very much discussed between these three minorities , are if they have the same origin or not. But the Bishops, priests and other religious authorities choose these three to be called " Chaldo-Assyrians" or Assyr-Chaldo. So today there arent much diffrence Big%20smile .
 
Hope this has helped you. Smile
 
 
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 18:41
Sharrukin
What you said is true, and what A-R said is also true. I am a Chaldean myself and I have studied the Chaldean history along with the Assyrian,Sumerian and Akkadian.
 
The King who is to be said "estabilished" the Assyrian Empire is known as Sargon 1 of the Akkadians.
 
Sargon I never claimed to have established the Assyrian Empire, only the Akkadian Empire.  His "homeland" was Kishi (close to Babylon) and he established his capital, Akkad, in the territory of Kishi, itself, not Assur.
 
According to the kinglists of the Assyrians, themselves, their earliest "king" was named Tudiya.
 
The Chaldeans are said to come from the north as the Assyrians excisted. Now that is off topic Tongue but I will try and explain it from what I have understand.
 
Nothing suggests that the Chaldaeans came from the north, neither from Assyrian or Babylonian sources.
 
The Assyrian King Sargon......
 
You mean Akkadian king Sargon
 
 did occupy mostly of the sumerian territories but in order to be called an assyrian you have to speak the language (which was a Semetic language, compare Hebrew,aramic,chaldean) along with that you have to somehow be seen in the eyes of the villagers/citizens as a "member" of the empire.
 
But Sargon did not consider himself to be Assyrian, he considered himself Akkadian. 
 
Now this brings us back to the Chaldeans which occupied the Assyrian Empire for quite a time.
 
It was the Assyrians which occupied Chaldaea (southernmost Babylonia). 
 
After that the Chaldeans had a King named Nibulous or something like that which still was loyal to the Assyriens which still, many of the cities/villages in the area , helped them out to stay "assyrians".
 
The Chaldaean king Nabu-na'id (Nabonidus) reigned about 50 years after the fall of the Assyrian Empire, hence, no loyalty existed to an empire which disappeared a half a century earlier. 
 
So in other words those who still was loyal to the former assyrian empire refused to take on a new life as a Chaldean which had different gods such as Marduk. But Nobilous didnt like his origin as much as people thought and gave more priviliges to the assyrians than the chaldeans.
 
Now, there is some truth that Nabonidus perhaps had some Assyrian ancestry, and that he denied proper attention to the state-cult of Marduk, but that did not mean that he favored the Assyrian priesthood over the Chaldaean.  He was more precisely devoted to the worship of Sin, whose temple in Harran was situated in the former area of Assyrian domination in the north.  His devotion caused him the capture the city from the Medes.
 
After that a war started and the citizens which still were chaldeans welcomed the Persian empror Cyrus to invade the empire.
 
There is some truth to the idea that because Nabonidus neglected the worship of Marduk, the Chaldaean priesthood and the people did not put up much resistance to the invading Persians. 
 
This is what I have heard from a friend who works in a museum in Iraq, now I dont know its true or not but alot of it makes sense. I hope it gave you an answear to you question.
 
The question had to do with the existence of Assyrian tribes, not with relations between Assyrians and Chaldaeans.
 
In Iraq today , people who are called "Assyrians" belong to a group of christians ( not Catholic,Protostant, Orthodox or anything) which has a own church. The Chaldeans are mostly Chatholics, Syrians (not as in a the country Syria! ) are mostly Orthodox but today there are Syrians who are Catholic!
 
Todays "Assyrians" are mainly descended from Aramaeans which lived in "Assyria" (the greater part of northern Mesopotamia).  They became Assyrians because
 
1. The Aramaeans were conquered by the Assyrians and given Assyrian citizenship.
 
2.  After the destruction of the Assyrian Empire, the whole of northern Mesopotamia continued to retain the name "Assyria".  Its mostly Aramaic-speaking population continued to call themselves "Assyrians".
 
Only a fraction may have had a true Assyrian origin, but, after the destruction of the Assyrian empire, the remnants became Aramaicised.
 
The "Chaldaeans" were called such in order to distinguish them from the "Assyrians" because the "Chaldaeans" were once "Assyrians" (Aramaeans of Assyria) but which were now in communion with Rome, hence they are "Catholics" while the "Assyrians" remain independent of Rome.
 
Now what is very much discussed between these three minorities , are if they have the same origin or not. But the Bishops, priests and other religious authorities choose these three to be called " Chaldo-Assyrians" or Assyr-Chaldo. So today there arent much diffrence Big%20smile .
 
Hope this has helped you. Smile
 
What three minorities?  I thought you just mentioned the "Assyrians" and "Chaldaeans".  In either case they mainly of Aramaean origin.
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Posts: 1013 		  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 13:27
"
Todays "Assyrians" are mainly descended from Aramaeans which lived in "Assyria" (the greater part of northern Mesopotamia).  They became Assyrians because
 
1. The Aramaeans were conquered by the Assyrians and given Assyrian citizenship.
 
2.  After the destruction of the Assyrian Empire, the whole of northern Mesopotamia continued to retain the name "Assyria".  Its mostly Aramaic-speaking population continued to call themselves "Assyrians".
 
Only a fraction may have had a true Assyrian origin, but, after the destruction of the Assyrian empire, the remnants became Aramaicised.
 
The "Chaldaeans" were called such in order to distinguish them from the "Assyrians" because the "Chaldaeans" were once "Assyrians" (Aramaeans of Assyria) but which were now in communion with Rome, hence they are "Catholics" while the "Assyrians" remain independent of Rome."
 
Who are the descendents of the ancient Assyrians then?
 
 
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 22:53
Who are the descendents of the ancient Assyrians then?
 
To continue the story, the Aramaeans of Mesopotamia (which also included Aramaicised Assyrians, called collectively, "Assyrians", eventually embraced Christianity.  However, after the early Islamic conquest, much of the region of Mesopotamia was Islamised.  The remnant which remained and retained their "Assyrian" identity continued to practice Christianity.  Hence, the descendants of the Assyrians, today, still remain in the region practicing either Islam (but not retaining the name "Assyrian"), and Christianity (by those which continued to use the name "Assyrian", but of these, only a fraction can be said to have truly had Assyrian ancestry).
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Posts: 1013 		  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 18:08
So, are Kurds descendent from them? I suppose when yuo mean Islam, you mean Kurds mainly.
They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 01:05
Some Kurds.  For most of their earlier history they were characterized as inhabiting the mountains north of historic Assyria.  This remained the situation until probably Sassanid times.   The Kurds by that time were probably Iranized and thus had a kinship with the Sassanids, who perhaps allowed them to expand.  They expanded into northern Mesopotamia "Kurdifying" some of the local "Arameo-Assyrian" population.  The majority remained in the mountainous regions, expanding into other regions "Kurdifying" other peoples.  Eventually Islam arrived to claim these Mesopotamian Kurds.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 08:07

Armaenes , did they call themselves that? Cause as I can see they didnt have much history in the middle east....
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 09:47
This was certainly what the Assyrians and Hebrews and the archaic Greeks called them.  Unfortunately, inscriptions among the Aramaeans, themselves were scarce, hence it is at this time impossible to know if they actually had an all-inclusive self-identity.  The only certainty is that the Aramaean state centered at Damascus was called "Aram" by the Syrian kings, themselves, as the Melqart Inscription of 'Bar-Hadad' attests. 
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Legendary assyrian kings/pedecessors: 1. Tudya 2.Adamu 3.Yangi 4.Sahlamu 5.Harharu 6.Mandaru 7.Imsu 8. Hartsu 9.Dadanu 10.Hanu 11.Zuabu 12.Nuabu 13.Abazu 14.Belu 15.Asarah 16.Ushpia 17.Apiashal 18.Hale 19.Samanu 20.Hayanu 21.Ilumer 22.Yakmesi 23.Yakmeni 24.Yazkurilu 25.Ilukabkabi 26.Aminu 27.Sulili 28.Kikia 29.Akia and...30.Puzurashur (ruled in the beginning of XXcentury B.C. His name is the first semmitic name in the list of assyrian kings. All the names before him have a subarean origin). 
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Posts: 256 		  Quote Balkh-Aryan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 02:47
These days I will post a map of the ancient Near East with all known tribal names on it.
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