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The creation of the universe
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El Pollo Loco View Drop Down
Knight
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Posts: 89 		  Quote El Pollo Loco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The creation of the universe
    Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 14:53

In responce to the original post, looking at a God as being "created" or "coming into existence" is not the only way to look at things, Because according to the Bible, God is outside of time. A good representation is if we immagine time as a comprehensive timeline, describing even the most minute change in reality. God is above this line, outside of time. Thus the idea that god could come into existenc is folly, because there is no change outside of time.
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Posts: 124 		  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2007 at 19:46

But think about it...

I accept that God may not of been created or came into existence out of nothing. But if that's not the case, then he must of been in existence forever (as your post loosely suggests).
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Posts: 89 		  Quote El Pollo Loco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2007 at 23:07

But if there is no forever for him to exist in, as my post suggests, then one of the rules dont apply, as forever deals strictly with time, and theoretically, god might exist outside of time.
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 07:09
Originally posted by El Pollo Loco

In responce to the original post, looking at a God as being "created" or "coming into existence" is not the only way to look at things, Because according to the Bible, God is outside of time. A good representation is if we immagine time as a comprehensive timeline, describing even the most minute change in reality. God is above this line, outside of time. Thus the idea that god could come into existenc is folly, because there is no change outside of time.

 
Where does the Bible specifies that God is outside of time?
The existence of God outside of time means that he is atemporal. If he is outside of time what does he uses to be attuned to Eart's events?
If he's outside of time then what happened/happens/will happen is irrelevant since to God they are all the same. That means it would be useless to speak of the creation of the Universe. Or maybe the Universe exists and God has nothing to do with it.
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Posts: 2419 		  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 23:47

Where does the Bible specifies that God is outside of time?


Genesis 1:1-In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth...

This implies that he existed before all the known universe, i.e. the heavens(space) and the earth (matter).


The existence of God outside of time means that he is atemporal. If he is outside of time what does he uses to be attuned to Eart's events?


He is not atemporal (without type) he is supertemporal, he exists in all times equally and unchanging. He does not need to attune himself to the events of Earth because he is all ready accounted for at all times.

If he's outside of time then what happened/happens/will happen is irrelevant since to God they are all the same. That means it would be useless to speak of the creation of the Universe.


Perhaps it is useless to speak of the creation of the Universe...

Or maybe the Universe exists and God has nothing to do with it.


Then that would make him less than God, so then he would not be considered God.

--------------------------------------------

Also the Christian God is considered timeless, he was never created, he has always existed in his current form and will continue to exist eternally. All things flow from him, he does not enter into anything since everything is connected to him.
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Posts: 1564 		  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 01:16

There is no universal time for god to be independent of, it's a relationship between objects in spacial dimensions.

 
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 04:53
Originally posted by JanusRook


Where does the Bible specifies that God is outside of time?


Genesis 1:1-In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth...

This implies that he existed before all the known universe, i.e. the heavens(space) and the earth (matter).
Actually this implies only that He created ...something. Time may have existed before the known universe. Maybe even before God...


The existence of God outside of time means that he is atemporal. If he is outside of time what does he uses to be attuned to Eart's events?


He is not atemporal (without type) he is supertemporal, he exists in all times equally and unchanging. He does not need to attune himself to the events of Earth because he is all ready accounted for at all times.
That would make time as being a part of God, not outside him. So, the universe is only a piece of God? (isn't that some kind of pantheism)


If he's outside of time then what happened/happens/will happen is irrelevant since to God they are all the same. That means it would be useless to speak of the creation of the Universe.


Perhaps it is useless to speak of the creation of the Universe...

Or maybe the Universe exists and God has nothing to do with it.


Then that would make him less than God, so then he would not be considered God.

--------------------------------------------

Also the Christian God is considered timeless, he was never created, he has always existed in his current form and will continue to exist eternally. All things flow from him, he does not enter into anything since everything is connected to him.


I don't mind about God, but did He created the Universe? Or is the birth of our Universe just a natural event that has nothing to do with god.
Is a child born or is a child created?
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Posts: 3224 		  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 05:31
A child is created; when fertilisation occurs and a zygote is formed.

"Time may even have existed before the known universe. Maybe even before God"
This contradicts the definition of a God. If a God were to exist, nothing would be above, before or after him.
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 05:50
Originally posted by Knights

A child is created; when fertilisation occurs and a zygote is formed.
A child is conceived, not created. The parents of a child do not create something, they just perpetuate something. Since it's about religion (spirit), my question should have been: "Is a human being created or born".

"Time may even have existed before the known universe. Maybe even before God"
This contradicts the definition of a God. If a God were to exist, nothing would be above, before or after him.
Oh, how delightful! Can you give me the definition of a God?
If a God were to exist, would he create the Universe? Especially one where His existance seems to be quite contested?
And if time existed before the Universe, and God is outside time (Janus said this) then "God is" should be rephrased in a way to properly define God. "God was/is/will be" won't do either since time is not enough to define God.
Anyway, I don't think the topic here is God's existance.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 08:46
 
Originally posted by Knights

"Time may even have existed before the known universe. Maybe even before God"
This contradicts the definition of a God. If a God were to exist, nothing would be above, before or after him.
 
It may contradict your definition of a God, but it doesn't contradict mine, under which a God does not have to be eternal. And I'm pretty sure my definition has been more widely accepted by humanity over the millenia than yours has. As indeed it is in most religions.
 
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Posts: 2419 		  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 14:47

Actually this implies only that He created ...something. Time may have existed before the known universe. Maybe even before God...


I would say Genesis implies that God existed before time (what?) since it references the days of creation and it says on the first day he rested. Now as to whether that is the first day that ever was, or the first in the "Days of Creation" would depend on the meanings of the original Hebrew text, and as I don't know Hebrew I can't be certain.

What I can be certain of, is in Christian teaching, there can be nothing in the natural world that doesn't come from God.


That would make time as being a part of God, not outside him. So, the universe is only a piece of God? (isn't that some kind of pantheism)


No think of it like time is God's clothes, it fits his form but is still not a part of him. I could make my own suit and wear it and it would not be a part of me, but it would still come from me.


I don't mind about God, but did He created the Universe? Or is the birth of our Universe just a natural event that has nothing to do with god.


In order for God to be what we consider God, he has to have created the universe because if he did not that means that there is something greater than him, which doesn't work logically. So yes God created the universe and he created it out of nothing, in absolute contradiction to the modern laws of nature, but then again the Big Bang contradicts the modern laws of nature.


Is a child born or is a child created?


A child is born of it's parents flesh but it's soul is created by God.


A child is created; when fertilisation occurs and a zygote is formed.


That's one interpretation, which may or may not be true. We as Christians define it as such just as a precaution, it's better to err on too soon than too late.


It may contradict your definition of a God, but it doesn't contradict mine, under which a God does not have to be eternal.


So if your God isn't eternal gcle2003, what created him? Just curious to know, since a lack of eternity means that time is linear and there has to a beginning for something to start the whole chain-reaction.

-----------------------

Oh back on topic, I believe that the world we experience is cyclical rather than linear, so to talk about the creation of the universe is pretty unnecessary since the universe just is as it was and is as it will be.
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Posts: 1211 		  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 06:12
Originally posted by JanusRook


Oh back on topic, I believe that the world we experience is cyclical rather than linear, so to talk about the creation of the universe is pretty unnecessary since the universe just is as it was and is as it will be.
 
Interesting, Janus. Are you thinking of birth-growth-death cycle or of a static Universe (dynamically balanced)?
I actually think of the known Universe as something that began, was, is, will be and then will be not. Also I don't think it was created (as in designed, or having a reason for it's start).
If nothing natural doesn't come from God (how about the spiritual realm, is it natural or not?) then also the destruction/end of the Universe is his work. And since time is irrelevant for God (what was/is/will be is the same for Him) then God creates/created/will create and destroyes/destroyed/will destroy the Universe. The creation and destruction of the Universe are the same for God. Now, wouldn't that be useless?
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 09:36
 
Originally posted by JanusRook


It may contradict your definition of a God, but it doesn't contradict mine, under which a God does not have to be eternal.


So if your God isn't eternal gcle2003, what created him? Just curious to know, since a lack of eternity means that time is linear and there has to a beginning for something to start the whole chain-reaction.
 
Not my God, my definition of a God.
 
In most religions gods are created. In many they die or are doomed to die, as among the Norse. In lots of religions such gods are created - or conceived - by other gods, and that, to modern Western ears, rather means that logically one god at least must have been uncreated.
 
However religions are not necessarily logical or consistent, and they sometimes include for instance the coming into existence of the 'first god' and creator of all else, by accident. Or they see the force or whatever that leads to the emergence of the first god or gods as being not itself a god - indeed as being an 'it' and not any kind of person.
 
It's certainly very frequent to see the most powerful God as having been created/conceived by a less powerful figure.
 
And so on. Mankind's ability to think up different kinds of gods appeary to be unlimited.
 
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Posts: 2419 		  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 18:11
Are you thinking of birth-growth-death cycle or of a static Universe (dynamically balanced)?


I guess I would believe in a static universe, in that time is irrelevant. To a being that exists outside of our reality, all times are the same and can be substituted for each other without interrupting it's flow since I think every moment is interchangeable with any other in space, or something like that, it's pretty confusing.


If nothing natural doesn't come from God (how about the spiritual realm, is it natural or not?)


The spiritual realm is SUPERnatural, so it is beyond our understanding and definitions are at a loss to describe it.


And since time is irrelevant for God (what was/is/will be is the same for Him) then God creates/created/will create and destroyes/destroyed/will destroy the Universe.


God will not destroy the universe, the universe will continue to exist until reality is consumed by the supernatural world, it will effectively end this world but it won't destroy it.


Now, wouldn't that be useless?


Of course, but I believe that existence is pointless (but not worthless). We exist because we are an extension of God's love, it is love for the sake of love and has such has no rationals no ulterior motives, we exist because of the interaction God has with the world.


Not my God, my definition of a God.


Ah, thanks for the clarification gcle2003, it always amazes me how knowledgeable you appear to be on these forums.
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Posts: 215 		  Quote Scorpius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 20:02
Time, time .. time ;)
 
First of all, time is a relative concept; I will try to give an example, but before that we need to find a natural way to measure the time, that means we are leaving our swiss made clocks behind.
 
Lets assume that we have two perfect plain mirrors, and lets assume that we fired a powerfull enough laser beam between these mirrors, and call every reflection of this beam between the mirrors a second.
 
What I did by changing the way I measure time is that I made the time a vector, that has a direction and velocity.
 
Now the thing is what may effect this time vector is going to effect my understanding of time in my reality/ frame.
 
Time is relative, it differes for different frames or lets say points of observation.
 
And back to the topic, the time frame of God is of course different as it should be. A second defined in God's frame maybe thousands of years in our reality, or lets say frame.

"Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But God will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning."
 
[22:47] Translation By Yusuf Ali
 
Long story short, time is relative.
 
 


Edited by Scorpius - 09-Jul-2007 at 20:04
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