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Timotheus
Baron
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Topic: Your views on Communism Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 00:48 |
Capitalism works if it is let run like the well-oiled machine it should be, with minimal government intervention to prevent unethical behaviour. The invisible hand will make all grow richer, like an ever growing tree. However, capitalism is rarely allowed to run as it should be; governments are typically too greedy to make it happen.
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Opium is the religion of the masses.
From each according to his need, to each according to his ability.
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JanusRook
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Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 02:28 |
Does it work?
Did Lenin mess it up?
Did Stalin forever tarnish the entire system?
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It can, yes and yes.
I think Communism is not possible at this time. However, as technology
progresses and population increases Communism becomes alot more
practical and desirable. I believe morally a socialist system is
superior to capitalism.
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I agree with you in that in the future communist societies will be more desireable than capitalist societies. I also believe that communalism is morally superior, I mean Jesus would be classified as a communist.
The majority of damage done to the reputation of the system comes from
American propaganda during the Cold War, which attached a stigma to the
whole system in the eyes of many.
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I know which is a shame since America could definetily prosper from more socialist programs.
The idea that everybody has equal wealth, belongings, etc, goes against human nature.
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That isn't exactly communism, in a truly communist society everyone has equal property, zero, zilch, zippo. In said society, property is shared amongst all members of the society and has no additional value other than its purpose and use. In a communist society you take what you need from others and give to others what they need. This is actually keeping in tradition to how tribal societies function.
Humanity itself is inherently unequal!
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Which is why people should have complementary roles in society instead of equal roles. Your telling me that it's fair in a capitalist system that a lawyer gets paid 100k+ a year while a garbage truck driver makes like 30k a year? Capitalism says that you can only have a good paying job if you exploit the more vulnerable members of society. Capitalism is a parasite on the poor, and because their exists a breaking point capitalism will bring about it's own destruction.
The invisible hand will make all grow richer, like an ever growing tree.
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Except that we exist in a world that has finite resources. I hate this analogy, capitalism is just a means to distribute wealth, (like communism), the wealth of the world is in the form of a percentage not numbers. It's not the US has 10 trillion dollars in surplus and increased to 12 trillion dollars. It's more like the US has 20% of the wealth of the world and increased to 22%, forcing Japan to drop from 5% to 3%. You don't get something from nothing, for one person to increase wealth another has to decrease wealth, and the incentive is for those who "cheat the system" by moving to nations where there is no government intervention, so that they can engage in all kinds of horrendous unethical acts, child labor, poor working conditions, 18 hour work days and the like. The only way that capitalism can work for the benefit of people is if there was one world government, that was in no way corrupted by business owners. Communism however works better the smaller the scale, which is why it failed in russia and it failed in china.
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 12:45 |
Pinguin
At least, I believe the enterprise should be communist NOT THE STATE!
Private enterprises should be communitaries, something like the cooperativism with steroids.
The state should be democratic, always.
Isn't this similar to what Latin American states like Venuzela and Bolivia are doing?
I think Democratic Socialism is a better idea at least on paper than Soviet Communism was.
Communism has had huge benefits especially to Europe, our social state, national health service, state education and other state functions are direct Communist policies. The people have benefitted from this, the workers have strong Unions, better wealth equality measures were bought in and so on.
There are aspects of Communism which are fantastic but also those which are questionable and pretty destructive.
I think the Latin American brand of Socialism will be more sucessfull than Soviet Communism and have a greater impact.
For example, in Brazil 99% of the wealth is held by 1% of the population, this is an example of the problems of capitalism. Thus the masses will naturally be attracted towards socialism.
However, socialism also has to adapt, it's criticized for being oppressive, effectively a dictatorship, an enemy of religion, humanity and faith where we are viewed as robots.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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Spartakus
Tsar
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 14:04 |
In my personal opinion,all these theories since they are man-made,they are ,naturally,defective,since man is not a perfect being.The problem with socialism-communism as well as that of libertanianism is that they are ,simply, nothing more than economical theories.They ignore the previous social structure ,social concerns and problems. The rising of the living standard alone cannot solve social problems,as the Yugoslavian case showed.The Yugoslav Communist model was an approach different than that of the Soviet Union.Yet,it failed to eliminate social/historical problems and issues between the different populations, which showed the way to the Yugoslav Wars.Of course,one would argue that if Tito was alive,these things would never happen.But hey,system's credibility and effectiveness is only tested when the great leader passes away.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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red clay
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 19:40 |
Originally posted by Zaitsev
That was talking about hierarchy. It doesn't really apply. |
Spoken like so many when confronted with the simple reality of a flawed and and failed system.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Guests
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Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 00:41 |
Originally posted by red clay
Originally posted by Zaitsev
That was talking about hierarchy. It doesn't really apply. |
Spoken like so many when confronted with the simple reality of a flawed and and failed system. |
That's an interesting approach to take considering: a) communism has never been implemented b) capitalism is fundamentally flawed on a practical and moral level
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Eondt
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Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 04:56 |
Except that we exist in a world that has finite resources. I hate this analogy, capitalism is just a means to distribute wealth, (like communism), the wealth of the world is in the form of a percentage not numbers. It's not the US has 10 trillion dollars in surplus and increased to 12 trillion dollars. It's more like the US has 20% of the wealth of the world and increased to 22%, forcing Japan to drop from 5% to 3%.
Not true. The only resources in the world which is finite is the natural resources, and the world hasn't yet reached a point where this becomes an issue (at present there is enough natural resources to supply economic avtivity, even with the recent boom in China). Labour fundamentally equals the number of users in an economy so it shouldn't be an issue unless it is made an issue through artificial interference. Skilled labour is limited and this is what both systems address in its own way. A capitalist system will result in the remuneration for skilled labour being higher, attracting more entrants into that area. In a communist system the centralised authority will attempt to manage skilled labour in deciding where entrants are needed and facilitating the entry into the market of said labour force.
To say that if the US gets richer, someone else needs to get poorer is untrue. Where there is a situation which could be regarded as unfair, is where markets have been artificially protected (as with the agricultural sector in Europe and the steel sector in the US).
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Dolphin
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Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 08:24 |
Everybody cannot become rich under capitalism, everybody cannot even get above the poverty line under capitalism. Yes, it promotes the betterment of oneself through personal incentives, but the benefit of one in an economic sense simply cannot happen without the detriment to another.
Look at 'developing' countries, all striving to gain the level of prosperity that most western societies have gained, ie become a tertiary service economy. The problem is that this level of development cannot be reasonably sustained across the globe, as the presently developed economies rely on cheap imports, labour and food from the 'Developing' nations to sustain their level of prosperity. Where is all the labour, the cheap food and the imports going to come from if everybody is already past that stage of development?
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Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 20:03 |
Originally posted by Dolphin
...Where is all the labour, the cheap food and the imports going to come from if everybody is already past that stage of development?
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Labour: Africa
Cheap Food: South America (high tech production)
Manufacturing Imports: China+India
What else?
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Dolphin
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Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 18:59 |
Won't the Africans be needing cheap labour when they become economies like Ireland's or America's? Where are they going to find the people do do the jobs that individuals in a developed society refuse to do?
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pekau
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Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 02:03 |
Originally posted by Dolphin
Won't the Africans be needing cheap labour when they become economies like Ireland's or America's? Where are they going to find the people do do the jobs that individuals in a developed society refuse to do? |
Which is the reason why it's so hard for a poor nation to get back to the top. That's why we call German, Korean and Japanese economical recovery miracles.
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Lmprs
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Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 21:27 |
Originally posted by Timotheus
Capitalism works if it is let run like the well-oiled machine it should be |
Not for the majority.
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JanusRook
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Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 03:05 |
That's the problem of capitalism it works for itself but not for the people. And then it tricks people into believing it's a good system for humanity when because it's the "least worst" option. How about we come up with a best option instead?
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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