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Why did the Huns moved into West?

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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why did the Huns moved into West?
    Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 18:25

I was wondering why the Huns barged into Roman Empire. Did they even know that there were Romans before they expanded into Europe? Why not Middle East? Or China? Or India? Why Europe? What caused them to move from China all the way to Europe?



Edited by pekau - 10-Feb-2007 at 18:26
     
   
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  Quote MING-LOYALIST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 22:03
The Xiongnu in mongolia was split into two groups.
Northern xiongnu and southern xiongnu.
The southern xiongnu became vassals of the Han while the Northern Xiongnu was eventually chased off by the incoming Xianbei from western manchuria northern inner mongolia.
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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 04:24
so their homeland was taken by Chinese and Xianbei, so they needed to move west to find out new land and new opportunities.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 08:22
Accualy a branch of the Xiongnu went to India
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 13:23
Originally posted by tommy

so their homeland was taken by Chinese and Xianbei, so they needed to move west to find out new land and new opportunities.
 
We always forget the regions they moved were not necessarily their new land. Nomadic people roamed in a very vast land. They always could find their kins at the place they moved, the royal class was always mistakenly refered as the whole group.  
 
One thing to add, Xianbei also absorbed large numbers of remnant Huns. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 13:36
Originally posted by pekau

I was wondering why the Huns barged into Roman Empire. Did they even know that there were Romans before they expanded into Europe? Why not Middle East? Or China? Or India? Why Europe? What caused them to move from China all the way to Europe?

 
Why not, it was one of the greatest empires in Asia at that time. They conquered lands from the shores of pacific ocean in the east to the Caspain sea in the west. They controlled silk road for hundreds of years. They were nomadic people, so western Euroasia steppe was their best choice. The steppe streched all the way to Europe, I think that's why.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 12:32
Well,there are 3 general factors,all factors of survival:Steppe nomads achieved their survival through pastoralism/cattle-breeding,minimum trade of leather with agricultural products,and looting nearby agricultural settlements.After Chinese built the Great Wall,their choices of looting where diminished to a great degree.Moreover ,there had to be some population boom,which made the Steppe areas crowded,leading to inter-tribal wars thus making some of the tribes to simply leave the area and search for other resources for their cattle,as well as new places for looting.That's the main reasons up to the Mongols and Genghiz Han's  "shock and awe".After that,the Steppe nomads showed vital interest in  conquering new lands in order to rule them.
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 18:49
i guess they probably liked blondes in europe lol.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 19:41
Originally posted by barbar

Originally posted by pekau

I was wondering why the Huns barged into Roman Empire. Did they even know that there were Romans before they expanded into Europe? Why not Middle East? Or China? Or India? Why Europe? What caused them to move from China all the way to Europe?

 
Why not, it was one of the greatest empires in Asia at that time. They conquered lands from the shores of pacific ocean in the east to the Caspain sea in the west. They controlled silk road for hundreds of years. They were nomadic people, so western Euroasia steppe was their best choice. The steppe streched all the way to Europe, I think that's why.
 
 
 
 
 
No they weren't. China easily defeated the "barbarians" until Ghengis Khan came.
 
And even if you were right, why didn't they just barge into China then?
     
   
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 03:37
Like China "defeated" topas, kitays, jrjis (we call them dzsrcsi )relatives of the mandjus), they created Ching)?
 
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 16:58
Sparakus
Well,there are 3 general factors,all factors of survival:Steppe nomads achieved their survival through pastoralism/cattle-breeding,minimum trade of leather with agricultural products,and looting nearby agricultural settlements.After Chinese built the Great Wall,their choices of looting where diminished to a great degree.
 
This is one of the common mistakes that is made regarding the Huns-Xiongu's. They actually had over 50 cities-towns, forts, trading posts, residential areas. They had become semi-nomadic and had a rich culture and state structure. As they got more prosperous, they started neglecting the milliatarist aspects and didn't post such a threat to the enemies of the past any more, this in turn made them a threat.
 
Hence the Old Hun state soon collapsed, the Huns had to mobilise again, regain their millitary and start spreading again.
 
I think this might be a reason why the writtings on the Gok-Turk monuments warn of the dangers of settling, getting rich and neglecting the running of the state.
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  Quote Sasori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 12:43
Originally posted by Tar Szernd

Like China "defeated" topas, kitays, jrjis (we call them dzsrcsi )relatives of the mandjus), they created Ching)?
 
 
 
You know that was when China was fragmented and weak. In the Han and Tang dynasties, although they did not win in every encounter, the Eastern/Western Turks, Xiong-Nu, Korea, Vietnam, and large parts of Mongolia were beaten into submission. Like pekau said, things started to go downhill right before the time of Genghis Khan and mostly afterward.
 
The Huns moved into West mainly because they were driven out from their lands north and west of China by the Han.


Edited by Sasori - 09-Mar-2007 at 12:46
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 07:00
Originally posted by Sasori

 
You know that was when China was fragmented and weak. In the Han and Tang dynasties, although they did not win in every encounter, the Eastern/Western Turks, Xiong-Nu, Korea, Vietnam, and large parts of Mongolia were beaten into submission. Like pekau said, things started to go downhill right before the time of Genghis Khan and mostly afterward.
 
The Huns moved into West mainly because they were driven out from their lands north and west of China by the Han.
 
We know how Han plead other nomadic groups for alliances to defeat Huns. Although they won some battels against Huns, Huns as a power remained well after Han. It was Xianbei who caused Huns to move to the west.
 
Tang again relied heavily  on the other Turkic groups to overthrow Kok-turk. Actually eastern Kokturk was overthrown in the end by other Turkic group (Basmil).
 
You might also forget how Tang emperor begged Uyghurs to save the ransanked capital Chan'an from Onguluk-Soygun.
 
If nomadic people were forced to move, it was mainly by other nomadic powers, as settled powers couldn't manage to rule over this type of lands, and what they could do was to support one nomadic power against another to keep it's own safety.
 
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  Quote Sasori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 12:47
Originally posted by barbar

Originally posted by Sasori

 
You know that was when China was fragmented and weak. In the Han and Tang dynasties, although they did not win in every encounter, the Eastern/Western Turks, Xiong-Nu, Korea, Vietnam, and large parts of Mongolia were beaten into submission. Like pekau said, things started to go downhill right before the time of Genghis Khan and mostly afterward.
 
The Huns moved into West mainly because they were driven out from their lands north and west of China by the Han.
 
We know how Han plead other nomadic groups for alliances to defeat Huns. Although they won some battels against Huns, Huns as a power remained well after Han. It was Xianbei who caused Huns to move to the west.
 
Tang again relied heavily  on the other Turkic groups to overthrow Kok-turk. Actually eastern Kokturk was overthrown in the end by other Turkic group (Basmil).
 
You might also forget how Tang emperor begged Uyghurs to save the ransanked capital Chan'an from Onguluk-Soygun.
 
If nomadic people were forced to move, it was mainly by other nomadic powers, as settled powers couldn't manage to rule over this type of lands, and what they could do was to support one nomadic power against another to keep it's own safety.
 
 
From wikipedia backed with lots of references..
 

Battle of Mobei

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Battle of Mobei
Part of The Sino-Xiongnu War
Date January - June, 119 BC
Location Orkhon Valley, Mongolia
Result Decisive Han victory
Combatants
Xiongnu Han Dynasty
Commanders
Yixixie Chanyu
Worthy Prince of the East
Zhao Xin
Wei Qing
Huo Qubing
Strength
Entire available troop 100,000 cavalries, 100,000 above infantry and 140,000 horses
Casualties
c. 90,000 dead and 87 aristocrats captured c. 20,000 cavalries dead and 110,000 horses lost
Sino-Xiongnu War
Mayi Mobei Loulan Jushi Zhizhi Yiwulu Ikh Bayan

The Battle of Mobei (漠北之戰, "Battle of Desert's North"), at the north of the Gobi Desert, was a major campaign launched by the Han Dynasty on January, 119 BC, as a vanguard campaign into the heartland of Xiongnu. The battle was a success for the Han, whose forces were led by Wei Qing and Huo Qubing. The forces were dispatched in two columns, taking the routes from Dingxiang and Dai Prefecture, each commander set off with a force of 50,000 cavalry and infantry carriers for supplies as rearguard.

After encountering the 80,000-strong cavalry main force of Yixixie Chanyu, who was defeated and eventually escaped under the protection of only a few hundred cavalries, Wei Qing lead the way of his army to the Khangay mountains and burned the Fortress of Zhao Xin to the ground at the Orkhon Valley, permanently removing the Xiongnu stronghold.

The other army led by Huo Qubing from Dai Prefecture, marched as far as the Lake Baikal in pursuit of the Worthy Prince of the Left, and killed 70,443 enemy soldiers, effective annihilated the Xiongnu tribe.

Aftermath

The costs of the victorious campaigns over ten years over the Xiongnu from 129 to 119 BC were enormous: the Han army lost almost 80% of their horses to the expedition, due to combats and non-combative losses, such as the harshness of the journey and plague by Xiongnu contamination of water supply with dead cattles. Economic pressure on the central Han government led to new taxes being levied, increasing the burden on average peasants. The population of Han empire dropped significantly as a result of famine and excessive taxing to fund military mobilisations.

Xiongnu, however, suffered a far more lethal blow, as their military losses would reflect directly onto their economy. On top of loss of manpower due to combat deaths and diseases, the nomadic Xiongnu lost millions of livestocks (their vital food resource) to the Han army, and the war left large proportion of the remaining cattles suffering miscarriages during reproductive seasons. Furthermore, the loss of control over the southern fertile grassland meant that Xiongnu had to hole up in the barren land of northern Gobi desert, struggling to survive. As a result, there was a ceasefire between the Han Dynasty and Xiongnu for seven years, which ended after a Xiongnu raid in 112 BC at Wuyuan.

References

 

Battle of Zhizhi

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Battle of Zhizhi
Part of The Sino-Xiongnu War
Date October - December, 36 BC
Location Taraz, Kazakhstan
Result Decisive Han victory
Combatants
Xiongnu Han Dynasty
Commanders
Zhizhi Chanyu Gan Yanshou
Chen Tang
Strength
3,000 Xiongnu cavalries and infantry with 10,000 cavalries reinforcement from Kangju 40,000 Han crossbowmen with Tarim Basin allies
Casualties
1518 aristocrats executed, 1,000 surrendered and 145 captived Minimal
Sino-Xiongnu War
Mayi Mobei Loulan Jushi Zhizhi Yiwulu Ikh Bayan

The Battle of Zhizhi (郅支之戰) was a battle between the Han Dynasty and the Zhizhi Guduhou Chanyu (sometimes known as Western Xiongnu) in 36 BC. The battle was a success for the Han, who were led by Gan Yanshou and Chen Tang. It occurred at the Fortress of Zhizhi on Talas River, constructed soon after he reached to the state of Kangju (centered on Beitian) in 44 BC, when he had fled from the east.

In 49 BC, Zhizhi Chanyu left Mongolia after a dispute with his brother who had accepted a tributary relation with the Han. In 44 BC, Zhizhi started to move west towards Kangju, and made an alliance with them with a spare of 3,000 armies. The king of Kangju used Zhizhi with his armies as auxiliary to attack his rival Wusun several times, but a dispute take place soon after. Zhizhi killed few of his men including his daughter and compel Kangju to build a fortress for him, through efforts of 500 men per day for 2 years.

His conflicts with Eastern Xiongnu eventually lead Han to an expedition. As a result of the war, Zhizhi was killed, his head was cut off by one of Chen Tang's general Du Xun during the battle and was sent to Chang'an.

Aftermath

The destruction of Zhizhi Chanyu lead to a half a century of peace between the Han Dynasty and Xiongnu, until Wang Mang enraged the Xiongnu in 10 AD. Thus, the long-termed raiding campaign only begin after 10 AD through Eastern Han.

References


Battle of Ikh Bayan

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Battle of Ikh Bayan
Part of The Sino-Xiongnu War
Date June, 89
Location Ikh Bayan, Mongolia
Result Decisive Han victory
Combatants
Northern Xiongnu Han Dynasty
Commanders
Northern Chanyu Dou Xian
Southern Chanyu
Deng Hong
Strength
Unknown 46,000 cavalries (Han regulars with 30,000 Southern Xiongnu and 8,000 Qiang auxiliaries)
Casualties
13,000 dead, 200,000 surrendered and 1,000,000 livestocks captured Minimal
Sino-Xiongnu War
Mayi Mobei Loulan Jushi Zhizhi Yiwulu Ikh Bayan

The Battle of Ikh Bayan (Chinese: 稽落山之戰; pinyin: Jlushān zhī zhn), was a major expedition launched against the Xiongnu by the Han Dynasty on June, 89. The battle was a success for the Han, who were led majority by Dou Xian. On the June of 89 the Han dispatched a force advanced from Jilu, Manyi and Guyang in three great columns, comprised of auxiliaries, specifically the main army of the Southern Xiongnu. With minimal opposition they advanced towards Gobi Altai in present day Mongolia. A large detachment then moved to the northwest, and in the major battle of the campaign they defeated the Northern Shanyu at Ikh Bayan and pursued him westwards into the Altain Nuruu ranges. Dou Xian brought the main body of his troops in triumphal progress north to the Khangai mountains, west of present day Harhorin. There he erected the Stele of Yanran [1], composed by his client, the historian Ban Gu, which celebrated the achievement of the battle.

Aftermath

After the battle, Dou Xian led his forces back, and the Northern Shanyu sought to negotiate peace. The Southern Shanyu Tuntuhe, however, was anxious to destroy his rival completely, and early in the 90, as embassies were still being exchanged, he launched an attack, captured his seal and treasure and his wives and daughters. Dou Xian now reported that the Northern Shanyu was so weak there was no point in treating with him further, but in February, 91, he dispatched a final attack, commissioned two of his generals Geng Kui and Ren Shang, who departed from Juyan and defeated the shanyu, captured his mother and killed 5,000 of his armies, drove him in flight again to the west from Altayn Nuruu. He was not heard of again. By 93, those of the 100,000 followers in Mongolian steppe who failed to surrender now called themselves Xianbei, not Xiongnu, and would have eventually emerged as the main body of Toba and Juan Juan (Rouran) later in between 3rd and 4th-century, its former territory was steadily taken over by the tribes of Xianbei from the northeast. While the rest of the Xiongnu left in Dzungaria [2], specifically in Lake Barkol, had not been directly affected, and some part of the shattered polity was reconstructed under a new chanyu, but was killed until 93, no chanyu, however, with an exception for Southern Xiongnu was ever heard of again [3]. On the frontier of China which faced present day Mongolia, the Xiongnu state was ended.

Notes

  1. ^ 《封燕然山铭》辞曰:铄王师兮征荒裔,剿凶虐兮截海外,夐其邈兮亘地界,封神丘兮建隆嵑,熙帝载兮振万世 Stele of Yanran, Hou Hanshu, 23
  2. ^ After the defeat in 91, the chanyu left some 200,000 of his retired veterans and wounded settle at the Dzungaria under his younger brother and later the Prince Huyan, they would continue to be mentioned in annals until 151, when they raided Yiwulu and nearly wrested away from the Han but were driven off by the Governor of Dunhuang, Ma Da, eventually they moved northwest to the steppe of Kazakhstan and became known as the tribes of Yueban in later annals. While the bravest and strongest of the Xiongnu migrated westwards under him in advance.
  3. ^ Though there was a rebellion by Xiongnu of the north elected a chanyu named Fenghou in 94, but he was of a Southern Xiongnu's royal house (son of Tuntuhe) and soon due to intimidation from the Xianbei in the wild, he was forced surrender to the Han court by 118.

References


 
These are 3 large most important battles in the Sino-Xiongnu war. As you can see, the Han(by itself) did most of the work by decisively destroyed the Xiongnu until it fractured and severely weakened to become South and Northern Xiongnu. Southern Xiongnu became Han vassal on their own wishes(not because Han pleaded with them as you suggested).
In the battle of Ikh Bayan, Dou Xian(Han general) delivered the final blow to the northern chanyu sending him in flight to the west of the Altai range. The chanyu was never heard again.
The Xianbei came to power only at the last leg of the war because the northern Xiongnu is on its last throes.
 
Settled powers may not rule over the steppe, but not because the lack of ability, it's because there is no point to doing that. Why would they want to settle harsh, arid, cold climate land that only yield a fraction of what their fertile farms can ? They have enough problems domestically already trying to make sure rebellions don't occur and obviously more than enough riches to enjoy in their palaces.
 
This is digressing from the topic about the Huns, but
Tang asked for help from the Uighur(who is Tang vassal states anyway) to free Chang-an because of the AnLushan rebellion, not because a steppe empire attacked it, you forgot about that. That's why I said China in its united form and not fragmented can withstand nomadic invasion which is what pekau first said. Actually it just so happen Genghis/Kubilai Khan and Nurhaci encountered fragmented China riddled with large rebellions and succeed. Please read my previous post again will you ?


Edited by Sasori - 11-Mar-2007 at 12:52
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 14:17

We all know what Zhangqian's travels were aimed at. That's my point to say that Chinese never could easily defeat Nomadic powers as Pekau said. Several hundred years of wars, creating and utilizing the internal disorder were showing the difficulities in defeating these powers.

Also Nomadic powers (especially Turkic ) were not interested in conquering the settled land, for fear of loosing their culture and free spirit. Why should they bother to move to a land which was not suitable for their life style? They were quite content with the tribute they could get from the middle kingdom. I suggest you to read Orhon script.

Uyghur empire was a vassal state of Tang? Which historian holds this nonsense except Chinese ones? Tang paid tribute through very unfair trade relation to Uyghur empire, which is a historical fact.

Anlushan and Shi simin were non-Chinese, and their real names were Ongluk and Soygun, Turkic generals.

As for the Huns after Han, herer is a Wiki article for you:

 
The Xiongnu after the Han Dynasty

After Hucuquan (呼廚泉), the Xiongnu were partitioned into 5 local tribes. The complicated ethnic situation of the mixed frontier settlements instituted during the Eastern Han had grave consequences, not fully apprehended by the Chinese government until the end of the 3rd century. By 260 AD Li Qbēi (劉去卑) had organized the Tiefu confederacy in the North East, and by 290 AD 刘元海 was leading a splinter group in the South West. At that time, non-Chinese unrest reached alarming proportions along the whole of the Western Jin frontier.

[edit] Liu Yuan's Bei Han 304-318 AD

In 304 the sinicised Liu Yuan (劉淵), a grandson of Yufuluo Chizhisizhu stirred up descendants of the southern Xiongnu in rebellion in Shanxi, taking advantage of the War of the Eight Princes then raging around the Western Jin capital Luoyang. Under Liu Yuan's leadership, they were joined by a large number of frontier Chinese and became known as Bei Han. Liu Yuan used 'Han' as the name of his state, hoping to tap into the lingering nostalgia for the glory of the Han dynasty, and established his capital in Pingyang. The Xiongnu use of large numbers of heavy cavalry with iron armour for both rider and horse gave them a decisive advantage over Jin armies already weakened and demoralised by three years of civil war. In 311, they captured Luoyang, and with it the Jin emperor Sima Chi (Emperor Huai). In 316, the next Jin emperor was captured in Chang'an, and the whole of north China came under Xiongnu rule while remnants of the Jin dynasty survived in the south (known to historians as the Eastern Jin dynasty).

[edit] Liu Yao's Former Zhou 318-329 AD

In 318, after suppressing a coup by a powerful minister in the Xiongnu-Han court (in which the Xiongnu-Han emperor and a large proportion of the aristocracy were massacred), the Xiongnu prince Liu Yao (劉曜) moved the Xiongnu-Han capital from Pingyang to Chang'an and renamed the dynasty as Zhao 趙 (it is hence known to historians collectively as Han Zhao). However, the eastern part of north China came under the control of a rebel Xiongnu-Han general of Jie 羯 (probably Yeniseian) ancestry named Shi Le 石勒. Liu Yao and Shi Le fought a long war until 329, when Liu Yao was captured in battle and executed. Chang'an fell to Shi Le soon after, and the Xiongnu dynasty was wiped out. North China was ruled by Shi Le's Later Zhao dynasty for the next 20 years.

However, the "Liu" Xiongnu remained active in the north for at least another century.

[edit] Tiefu & Xia 260-431 AD

The northern Tiefu 鐵弗 branch of the Xiongnu gained control of the Inner Mongolian region in the 10 years between the conquest of the Tuoba Xianbei state of Dai by the Former Qin empire in 376, and its restoration in 386 as the Northern Wei. After 386, the Tiefu were gradually destroyed by or surrendered to the Tuoba, with the submitting Tiefu becoming known as the Dugu 獨孤. Liu Bobo 劉勃勃, a surviving prince of the Tiefu fled to the Ordos Loop, where he founded a state called the Xia (thus named because of the Xiongnu's supposed ancestry from the Xia dynasty) and changed his surname to Helian 赫連. The Helian-Xia state was conquered by the Northern Wei in 428-431, and the Xiongnu thenceforth effectively ceased to play a major role in Chinese history, assimilating into the Xianbei and Han ethnicities.

 

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  Quote Sasori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 18:02
Originally posted by barbar

We all know what Zhangqian's travels were aimed at. That's my point to say that Chinese never could easily defeat Nomadic powers as Pekau said. Several hundred years of wars, creating and utilizing the internal disorder were showing the difficulities in defeating these powers.

Also Nomadic powers (especially Turkic ) were not interested in conquering the settled land, for fear of loosing their culture and free spirit. Why should they bother to move to a land which was not suitable for their life style? They were quite content with the tribute they could get from the middle kingdom. I suggest you to read Orhon script.

Uyghur empire was a vassal state of Tang? Which historian holds this nonsense except Chinese ones? Tang paid tribute through very unfair trade relation to Uyghur empire, which is a historical fact.

Anlushan and Shi simin were non-Chinese, and their real names were Ongluk and Soygun, Turkic generals.

As for the Huns after Han, herer is a Wiki article for you:

 
The Xiongnu after the Han Dynasty

After Hucuquan (呼廚泉), the Xiongnu were partitioned into 5 local tribes. The complicated ethnic situation of the mixed frontier settlements instituted during the Eastern Han had grave consequences, not fully apprehended by the Chinese government until the end of the 3rd century. By 260 AD Li Qbēi (劉去卑) had organized the Tiefu confederacy in the North East, and by 290 AD 刘元海 was leading a splinter group in the South West. At that time, non-Chinese unrest reached alarming proportions along the whole of the Western Jin frontier.

[edit] Liu Yuan's Bei Han 304-318 AD

In 304 the sinicised Liu Yuan (劉淵), a grandson of Yufuluo Chizhisizhu stirred up descendants of the southern Xiongnu in rebellion in Shanxi, taking advantage of the War of the Eight Princes then raging around the Western Jin capital Luoyang. Under Liu Yuan's leadership, they were joined by a large number of frontier Chinese and became known as Bei Han. Liu Yuan used 'Han' as the name of his state, hoping to tap into the lingering nostalgia for the glory of the Han dynasty, and established his capital in Pingyang. The Xiongnu use of large numbers of heavy cavalry with iron armour for both rider and horse gave them a decisive advantage over Jin armies already weakened and demoralised by three years of civil war. In 311, they captured Luoyang, and with it the Jin emperor Sima Chi (Emperor Huai). In 316, the next Jin emperor was captured in Chang'an, and the whole of north China came under Xiongnu rule while remnants of the Jin dynasty survived in the south (known to historians as the Eastern Jin dynasty).

[edit] Liu Yao's Former Zhou 318-329 AD

In 318, after suppressing a coup by a powerful minister in the Xiongnu-Han court (in which the Xiongnu-Han emperor and a large proportion of the aristocracy were massacred), the Xiongnu prince Liu Yao (劉曜) moved the Xiongnu-Han capital from Pingyang to Chang'an and renamed the dynasty as Zhao 趙 (it is hence known to historians collectively as Han Zhao). However, the eastern part of north China came under the control of a rebel Xiongnu-Han general of Jie 羯 (probably Yeniseian) ancestry named Shi Le 石勒. Liu Yao and Shi Le fought a long war until 329, when Liu Yao was captured in battle and executed. Chang'an fell to Shi Le soon after, and the Xiongnu dynasty was wiped out. North China was ruled by Shi Le's Later Zhao dynasty for the next 20 years.

However, the "Liu" Xiongnu remained active in the north for at least another century.

[edit] Tiefu & Xia 260-431 AD

The northern Tiefu 鐵弗 branch of the Xiongnu gained control of the Inner Mongolian region in the 10 years between the conquest of the Tuoba Xianbei state of Dai by the Former Qin empire in 376, and its restoration in 386 as the Northern Wei. After 386, the Tiefu were gradually destroyed by or surrendered to the Tuoba, with the submitting Tiefu becoming known as the Dugu 獨孤. Liu Bobo 劉勃勃, a surviving prince of the Tiefu fled to the Ordos Loop, where he founded a state called the Xia (thus named because of the Xiongnu's supposed ancestry from the Xia dynasty) and changed his surname to Helian 赫連. The Helian-Xia state was conquered by the Northern Wei in 428-431, and the Xiongnu thenceforth effectively ceased to play a major role in Chinese history, assimilating into the Xianbei and Han ethnicities.

 

 
The nomadic people are not interested in conquering the settled land ? Looks like the Xianbei, Kubilai Khan, and Nurhaci(Manchu) disagreed with you. They formed respectively the Northern Wei kingdom, Yuan dynasty, and Manchu Qing dynasty. They all changed their lifestyle to sedentary and sent their armies to fight other "barbarian" armies that threatened China i.e. Ruan-Ruan in the Northern Wei time and the Mongol on Manchu time. Even the Xianbei desperately tried to shed their lifestyle and decreed that everyone speak Han Chinese language and adopted Han names.
 
From wikipedia...

As the Northern Wei state grew, the emperors' desire for Han Chinese institutions and advisors grew. Cui Hao (381-450), an advisor at the courts in Datong played a great part in this process.[5] He introduced Han Chinese administrative methods and penal codes in the Northern Wei state, as well as creating a Taoist theocracy that lasted until 450. The attraction of Han Chinese products, the royal courts taste for luxury, the prestige of Chinese culture at the time, and Taoism were all factors in the influence the Chinese in the Northern Wei state. Chinese influence accelerated during the capital's move to Luoyang in 494 and Emperor Xiaowen continued this by establishing a policy of systematic sinicization that was continued by his successors. Xianbei traditions were largely abandoned. The royal family took the sinicization a step further by changing their family name to Yuan. Marriages to Chinese families were encouraged. With this, Buddhist temples started appearing everywhere, displacing Taoism as the state religion. The temples were often created to appear extremely lavish and extravagant on the outside of the temples. [6]

 
Btw, when are you going to admit that the Han did not plead other Xiongnu tribes to fight each other and did most of the work themselves ? If you disagree with pekau, then quote him only.
 
Yes, it wasn't the Uighur who got crushed by Tang Taizong, that was the Gok Turks which overlord the Uighur at that time.
 
Btw, just because AnLuShan is of Turkic descent is all his armies of Turkic descent ? No, his armies are Chinese. So this was a large Chinese rebellion, not a steppe empire attack. Read: the name AnLuShan rebellion would be intuitive enough for anybody I thought.
 
Lookie here from wikipedia...
 

An Rokhan was part of a large population of expatriate Turks and Sogdians living in the frontier trade colonies of northwestern China. His father was a Bukharan sartapo (merchant) employed by the Turkic Khanate to administer their domains. At this time many Sogdians were working as diplomats and administrators for the Turks. His mother was a full-blooded Turkic Shaman, no doubt in a political marriage. Growing up in a town in rmqi, Rokhan was working as a sartapo in the market when he was accused of sheep theft and sentenced to death. He escaped from the city and joined the Tang army as a mercenary. By distinguishing himself in the border wars of the northwestern frontier, particularly the Khitan invasion of 751-752, Rokhan rose through the ranks to become the military governor of Fanyang Province (Hebei) as (jiedushi) of Manchuria. Enormously fat, he became the favorite of the Emperor's beloved concubine, the lady Yang Guifei. Through her influence, he was appointed a Duke in the latter year, and eventually was made governor of three major frontier provinces in the northeast, each with a sizable army.

Stung by repeated accusations of plotting treachery, he launched the An Lushan Rebellion in 755, which marked the watershed of Tang power. Rokhan led an army of about 150,000 soldiers from Peking (Beijing) and captured the eastern capital city of Loyang (Luoyang) in the fall of that year. Gross military incompetence by the Chief Minister Yang Guozhong (Lady Yang's cousin and An's accuser) caused the capture of the main Tang capital of Chang'an (Sian/Xi'an) in 756, and Rokhan proclaimed himself emperor. However, he was forced to abandon the city to Uyghur mercenaries under Tang service before he could establish a new dynasty. Retreating to Luoyang, he carried back with him an unwilling corps of government bureaucrats (including the poets Du Fu and Wang Wei). In 757, he was murdered by his own son, when he showed signs of extreme paranoia to those around him. (It has been suggested that this was a symptom of acute diabetes, due to his obesity.) Although his rebellion was eventually crushed, it forced the Tang dynasty to became overdependent on the goodwill of provincial governors and military commanders, thus irretrievably eroding the Tang's central authority.

 
Regarding the Huns after Han article that you posted, that even reinforces my point about the fact that the steppe invasion is timed when the Chinese is weak and still reeling from large rebellions/civil war.
A few questions:
1. Do you know what happens in China during 190 AD - 280 AD ? Hint: its' very famous worldwide.
2. Did you notice that these "Xiongnu" proudly wears their Chinese name ? They are of mixed ancestry at this point in time. Can you guess the other part ? Can we call somebody a pure Huns anymore whose ancestor is part Han, speak Han Chinese, educated as Han Chinese, and well-versed in Chinese art of war and strategies ?
I'll give you a hint...
 
From wikipedia.. 

Liu Yuan was a member of Xiongnu nobility, as a descendant of chanyus of the Luanti (欒提) royal clan, who, along with their people, had long been loyal vassals of Han Dynasty, and then to its successor states Cao Wei and Jin Dynasty (265-420). In late Cao Wei or early Jin Dynasty (265-420) times, the Xiongnu nobles claimed that they had Han Dynasty ancestry as well -- through a princess that married the first great chanyu in Xiongnu history, Modu Shanyu, and therefore changed their family name to Liu, the same name as the Han imperial clan. Liu Yuan's father Liu Bao (劉豹) was a son of one of the last chanyus, Yufuluo (於扶羅), and the nephew of the very last chanyu Huchuquan (呼廚泉) (before Cao Cao abolished the office in 216 and divided the Xiongnu into five tribes (bu, 部), and he had the command of the Left Tribe (左部). Liu Yuan's mother Lady Huyan (呼延) appeared to be from a noble family, and was in probability Liu Bao's wife and not a concubine, but that is not clear. As all five tribes settled down in modern southern Shanxi, that was likely where Liu Yuan was born and raised.

As powerful Xiongnu nobles were usually encouraged or pressured by Cao Wei and Jin authorities to send their sons to the capital Luoyang (both to encourage them to further sinicization and as collateral for their loyalty, Liu Yuan was sent to Luoyang to reside and to study traditional Chinese literature. He became well-known for his studies, particularly of the Zou version of Confucius' Spring and Autumn Annals and of the military strategies of Sun Tzu and Wu Qi. The key Jin official Wang Hun (王渾) (one of the lead generals who later participated in conquering Eastern Wu) became impressed with him, and Wang Hun's son Wang Ji (王濟) became a close friend of Liu Yuan's. Wang Hun believed Liu to be general material and repeatedly recommended Liu Yuan to Emperor Wu, but Kong Xun (孔恂) and Empress Yang Zhi's uncle Yang Ji (楊濟) suspected Liu for his Xiongnu ancestry and persuaded Emperor Wu against giving Liu military commands during campaigns against Eastern Wu and the Xianbei rebel Tufa Shujineng (禿髮樹機能). Eventually, even Emperor Wu's brother Sima You the Prince of Qi, impressed and fearful of Liu's abilities, encouraged Emperor Wu to have Liu executed, but Wang Hun persuaded Emperor Wu that it would be wrong. When Liu Bao died, Emperor Wu permitted Liu Yuan to take over command of the Left Tribe.

As the commander of the Left Tribe, Liu became known for his fair administration of laws and willingness to listen to ideas, and also for his willingness to spread his wealth. Therefore, the ambitious people in his region, not only of the five Xiongnu tribes but of many Han clans, flocked to him. After Emperor Wu's death and succession by Emperor Hui, the regent Yang Jun made Liu the commander of all five tribes, but toward the end of the subsequent regency of Emperor Hui's wife Empress Jia Nanfeng, Liu was removed from that position due to his inability to stop one of his countrymen's rebellions. Later, when Sima Ying the Prince of Chengdu became the military commander at Yecheng (鄴城, in modern Handan, Hebei, he invited Liu to be one of his subordinate military commanders, and Liu accepted the invitation.

 


Edited by Sasori - 11-Mar-2007 at 18:36
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  Quote Sasori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 18:10

I realize that your disagreement mostly comes from what pekau said. Also, I notice that this argument has no end. So in the hopes of getting you to see my point that the steppe empire is not invincible and often get crushed by Chinese dynasties and vice versa(I myself is part Mongol part Chinese), I'll end my argument right here. Hopefully we both get more information out of this.

In summary regarding the Han-Xiongnu war:
In the first 60 years or so(from 200 BC - 130BC), the Xiongnu had the advantage and exact tribute from the Han. This is after the Han had just finished reunification of China from the ashes of the Qin dynasty by continuous fighting with Xiang Yu. FYI, the Qin dynasty themselves exact massive damage to the Xiongnu by way of General Meng Tian. In any case, in the next 200 years or so(from 130 BC - 70AD), the Xiongnu was systematically destroyed as the Han beat them in their own game and acquired cavalry that can match the Xiongnu and exact significant damage to Xiongnu military and economic base. At this time as well, part of the Xiongnu became vassal to the Han. After 70AD, the Northern Xiongnu was driven to the western most fringes of the Han dynasty and never was heard again prompting many scholars to guess that they've moved on to the West to be called the Huns. The southern Xiongnu continued to become vassal states and became sinicized before they too rebelled after Three Kingdoms era as the time is ripe for another invasion when the Jin dynasty had just finished off Shu and Wu kingdoms.
 


Edited by Sasori - 11-Mar-2007 at 18:34
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 18:52
Sasori
The nomadic people are not interested in conquering the settled land ? Looks like the Xianbei, Kubilai Khan, and Nurhaci(Manchu) disagreed with you.
 
Nonsense, your mixing up states, statemen and pollitical figures seperated by hundreds of years and presuming their all the same.
 
The Huns had their own cities, controlled the gates of the Silk-route between China and powers to the West. They had an advanced millitary system which has been adopted world-wide and had a well organised advanced state.
 
Sasori
Btw, just because AnLuShan is of Turkic descent is all his armies of Turkic descent ? No, his armies are Chinese.
 
Its more likely that his army was Turkic than Chinease, unless you can proove they were all Chinease.
 
 
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  Quote Sasori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 08:21
Originally posted by Bulldog

Sasori
The nomadic people are not interested in conquering the settled land ? Looks like the Xianbei, Kubilai Khan, and Nurhaci(Manchu) disagreed with you.
 
Nonsense, your mixing up states, statemen and pollitical figures seperated by hundreds of years and presuming their all the same.
 
The Huns had their own cities, controlled the gates of the Silk-route between China and powers to the West. They had an advanced millitary system which has been adopted world-wide and had a well organised advanced state.
 
And yet they all did the same, actions speak louder than words. I merely provided examples to counter other people's argument, try to read what's going on before you butt in.
 
I'm not saying the Huns are not a powerful empire, they certainly are since they were a constant threat to the Han and later contributed heavily to the fall of the Roman empire but we are not discussing whether or not they are powerful, we're discussing what factors made them moved West.
 
Originally posted by Bulldog

Sasori
Btw, just because AnLuShan is of Turkic descent is all his armies of Turkic descent ? No, his armies are Chinese.
 
Its more likely that his army was Turkic than Chinease, unless you can proove they were all Chinease.
 
 
 
From wikipedia...
 
Stung by repeated accusations of plotting treachery, he launched the An Lushan Rebellion in 755, which marked the watershed of Tang power. Rokhan led an army of about 150,000 soldiers from Peking (Beijing) and captured the eastern capital city of Loyang (Luoyang) in the fall of that year. Gross military incompetence by the Chief Minister Yang Guozhong (Lady Yang's cousin and An's accuser) caused the capture of the main Tang capital of Chang'an (Sian/Xi'an) in 756, and Rokhan proclaimed himself emperor. However, he was forced to abandon the city to Uyghur mercenaries under Tang service before he could establish a new dynasty. Retreating to Luoyang, he carried back with him an unwilling corps of government bureaucrats (including the poets Du Fu and Wang Wei). In 757, he was murdered by his own son, when he showed signs of extreme paranoia to those around him. (It has been suggested that this was a symptom of acute diabetes, due to his obesity.) Although his rebellion was eventually crushed, it forced the Tang dynasty to became overdependent on the goodwill of provincial governors and military commanders, thus irretrievably eroding the Tang's central authority.
 
Another wikipedia, more detailed...
 
An Lushan was a general of non-Han Chinese ancestry. He was appointed by the emperor Tang Xuanzhong to be commander (節度使) of three garrisons in the north, Pinglu, Fanyang and Hedong, in effect giving An Lushan control over the entire area north of the lower reaches of the Yellow River. With such power and land in his control (the total military power of An Lushan in those three garrisons alone was about 164,000 strong), An Lushan planned a revolt, taking advantage of the decadent Tang bureaucracy and the absence of strong troops around the palace to achieve his aims. He avoided suspicion by pleasing the Emperor in as many ways as possible, even calling himself the adopted son of Xuanzhong's favorite concubine, Yang Guifei. In this way, he was protected from criticism, even when the Chief Minister, Yang Guozhong, demanded his dismissal.
 
 
Noticed where his soldiers come from ? Beijing area. That's pretty far from Xinjiang/Kazakhstan area where he might be born. Understand now ? Please educate yourself more before talking about Chinese history.  
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 14:58
Wikipedia is not a credible "source", infact when dealing with such matters its not a source what-so-ever ;)


Edited by Bulldog - 20-Mar-2007 at 14:59
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