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William Jones learning from Indias, but ?

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M. Nachiappan View Drop Down
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: William Jones learning from Indias, but ?
    Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 03:50

The picture symbolizes how academic Indians today often remain under the glass ceiling as native informants of the Westerners. Yet in 19th century Europe, Sanskrit was held in great awe and respect, even while the natives of India were held in contempt or at best in a patronizing manner as children to be raised into their master's advanced civilization.

Sir William Jones (1746-1794) the first British to master Sanskrit and study the Vedas, wrote to Sir Warren Hastings how to spread "our pure faith" (Christianity) as "no mission from the Church of Rome will ever be able to convert the Hindus."

The above sculpture has been the modern one, depicting William Jones learning from Indian scholars.
 
But, note the "westrern depcition" of deception:
 
1. He sitting on a chair and table arrogantly cross-legged pointing towards his Gurus - the teachers.
 
2. Conveniently, thus seated with good dress, he is taking down, what the Pundit explains from or translates from the book on his lap.
 
3. The poor Indian scholar / Professor is only "a half-naked fakir" !!!
 
4. With folded hands, bowed head, seated in "Padmashana", a cloth covering his head, he reads carefully and teaches the "arrogant-learned" one !!!
 
5. Poor Assistant Professor is looking at speechless - note his left hand on his chin!
 
6. "HE FORMED A DIGEST OF HINDU AND MOHAMMEDAN LAWS" is visible undeneath - so he gives law for the "Law Givers"!
 
7. Instead of respecting the teacher, is this way of treating Teachers by western way?
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 07:19

M. Nachiappan, it's no secret that Europeans up to recent times have had a racist attitude towards Indians and other peoples of the world. That being said, I think you're going a bit far with your analysis. After all, western customs are quite different from Indian ones. I will go through your points:

1. Sitting cros-leggedly is not always considered arrogant in western society: often it is to be interpreted as simply relaxed. This sculpture could also be interpreted as Jones having a friendly dialogue with the gurus.

2. I don't see what's wrong with this.

3. The western view of the appearance of Indian mystics has often been  that they are not always fully clothed. But that doesn't necessarily imply disrespect in this case. Many philosophers from the classical period in Europe have also been depicted in this way.

5. In western culture, a hand on the chin simply symbolizes interest and that the respective person is thinking.

6. No, I don't think that this implies that he gives the law, but simply that he's learning from them. Forming a digest implies gathering data and arranging it in a structured way for the readers, and in no way teaching the respective subject to the persons that the information is gathered from.

7. I think that you are taking your own Indian cultural assumptions and applying them to Western symbolism, which may lead you to the wrong conclusions. All a westerner would see from this sculpture is Jones having a friendly dialogue with Indian scholars and creating a compendium of Indian law. Before you accuse westerners of unfair bias, please consider that you may be in the same position. Turning dialogue into accusation is not constructive.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 01:58

I respectfully thank your very much for your comments, however, I do not know from where from you are hailing (your member profile too mentions nothing about you).

Historically, Indians have been oppressed and suppressed people on the earth. Their history has been meddled with by the non-Indians. If you want I can give specific details. So how Indians could have "bias, prejudice..." against "westerners". I just thought of being in the position of "westerners", but I could not conceive anything.

See the difference of Jones learning obediently from the Indians during 18th century and depiction of it in different manner in the sculpture now (within 100 or 200 years?).

Kindly give details when and how Jones "had friendly dialogu with the gurus" as suggested by you?

You assert,"Forming a digest implies gathering data and arranging it in a structured way for the readers, and in no way teaching the respective subject to the persons that the information is gathered from".

Can it be done with every law - here in the context, "HE FORMED A DIGEST OF HINDU AND MOHAMMEDAN LAWS".
 
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 15:08
If you wish to know I was born in Romania and emigrated to Canada about 13 years ago. As an immigrant from a poor country to a wealthy one, I eventually understood that it is quite possible to have prejudices even if your country has been suppressed and oppressed. Actually, not only is it possible, it is probable that an inhabitant of a poor country may have prejudices against its opressors, even when they are not fully warranted. Romania, by the way, has been opressed by a large number of other nations including the Russians, the Turks, the Austrians, the Poles, the Mongols, the Hungarians; and it went through a phase of being an emerging economic satellite of western Europe. Anyway, Romanians have a habit of blaming some of these people and seeing them in a very poor light (especially the Russians and Turks). After studying history from a more detached viewpoint in Canada, I came to see that many (of course not all) of the Romanian assumptions about Russian or Turkish motivations were unwarranted or misplaced, as Russians/Turks own perception of the situation was quite different from what the Romanians imagined it to be.
 
 
Anyway, back to Jones. We don't really know exactly how Jones behaved when he had an encounter with the gurus, do we now? So we don't know if Jones "learned obediently" from the gurus. The western representation of this encounter was symptomatic of the prevailing western superiority complex of the time, to a certain extent, that is true. But I would say that we shouldn't stretch the analysis too far. The sculptor was likely not aware that for an Indian this scene would not suggest a friendly dialogue.
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
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Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 00:11
I share your sentiments.
 
We only request to understand the feelings of Indians: I just reproduce the following from Mr. Rajiv Malhothra in the context:
 
"Arindam Chakrabarti, Professor of Philosophy, University of Hawaii, brought to my attention a colonial wall carving in Oxford which blatantly boasts of the intellectual conquest of Sanskrit by the British. Chakrabarti wrote as follows:

There is a monument to Sir William Jones, the great eighteenth-century British Orientalist, in the chapel of University College, Oxford. This marble frieze shows Sir William sitting on a chair writing something down on a desk while three Indian traditional scholars squatting in front of him are either interpreting a text or contemplating or reflecting on some problem.

It is well known that for years Jones sat at the feet of learned pandits in India to take lessons in Sanskrit grammar, poetics, logic, jurisprudence, and metaphysics. He wrote letters home about how fascinating and yet how complex and demanding was his new learning of these old materials. But this sculpture shows quite realistically the Brahmins sitting down below on the floor, slightly crouching and bare-bodied with no writing implements in their hands (for they knew by heart most of what they were teaching and did not need notes or printed texts!) while the overdressed Jones sits imperiously on a chair writing something at a table. The inscription below hails Jones as the Justinian of India because he formed a digest of Hindu and Mohammedan laws. The truth is that he translated and interpreted into English a tiny tip of the massive iceberg of ancient Indian Dharmashastra literature along with some Islamic law books. Yet the monument says and shows Jones to be the law-giver, and the native informer to be the receiver of knowledge.

What this amply illustrates is that the semiotics of colonial encounters have perhaps indelibly inscribed a profound asymmetry of epistemic prestige upon any future East-West exchange of knowledge. (Arindam Chakrabarti, Introduction, Philosophy East & West Volume 51, Number 4 October 2001 449-451.)

It took me nearly two years to locate the carving in Oxford, which I had to personally visit to see and then to go through a bureaucratic quagmire to get the following picture of it.

The picture symbolizes how academic Indians today often remain under the glass ceiling as native informants of the Westerners. Yet in 19th century Europe, Sanskrit was held in great awe and respect, even while the natives of India were held in contempt or at best in a patronizing manner as children to be raised into their master's advanced civilization.

In 1794 the first chair of Sanskrit in Europe was established in Copenhagen. In 1808, Schlegel's university had replaced Hebrew and Arabic with Sanskrit. Sanskrit was introduced into every major European university between 1800 and 1850 and overshadowed other classical languages which were often downsized to make way for Sanskrit positions. This frenzy may be compared with today's spread of computer science in higher education. The focus on Sanskrit replaced the earlier focus on Arabic/Persian as the source of intellectual thought.

 
Thanking you for your feelings, as we do not want to blame human-beings / fellow-men, as long as they respect each other.
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 00:16
In the year 1784, under the patronage of Governor General Warren Hastings, the Asiatic Society of Bengal was formed with a membership of 30 Europeans, headed by William Jones as president.
 
In the very year, he wrote to Warren Hastings how to spread "our pure faith" as "no mission from the Church of Rome will ever be able to convert the Hindus." He wrote about translating into Sanskrit and "then quietly to disperse the work among the well-educated natives."
 
He goes on to state that "all the 14 Menus (Manus) are reducible to one," and that "a connection subsisted between the old idolatrous nations." 
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 08:51

I think we are arguing about semantics here: this is the defintion of digest from the ENcarta online dictionary:

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861672424/digest.html

noun  (plural digests)
 
Definition:
 
1. summary: a shortened version of a work that contains the most important or interesting information from the original version

 
2. collection of abridged pieces: a magazine, book, or broadcast that contains shortened versions of articles or stories originally from different sources

 
3. law collection of legal opinions: a systematic compilation of laws or legal opinions

 

As you can see, a digest is considered to be a  summary, a collection of legal opinsions. Whether it is exhaustive is not the point. In fact one of the defintions of digest implies that it is simply a summary. Jones took down what he thought was the fundamentals of Hindu and muslim law, creating a summary not an encyclopedia of it.
 

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Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 03:35
I am sorry, I could not respond to you immediately with details, as I was pre-occupied with other work.
 
One point, I should tell you, it is not the issue of semantics, but interfring and meddling with Inddian law.
 
Kindly read Henry Maine and others role in it.
 
I shall give details later.
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 03:23

Just like T. B. Macaulay's "minutes", Henry Maine declared that India was empty of laws before the British came:

 
"Nobody who has inquired into the matter can doubt that, before the British Government began to legislate, India was, regard being to its moral and material needs, a country singularly empty of law."
 

See: Maine's "Minute on Codification in India," dated July 17, 1879, at the NAI, Home (Legislative) August 1879, 21720.

 
Thus, started the disparagement of the Indian law by the British. They tried to project themselves as the "savious" of India.
 
Like the Mohammedans, they imposed their law on the majority Hindus. In the "codification of law", they could have only done it in "criminal law", without touching "civil law".
 
Though, a common civil code was followed in the Portuguese India, the British did not go for such "singular law" in the case of civil issues.

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 05:50
See another instance, this time J. Rennell:
 
 
As the picture is not getting pasted, I am giving the reference where it is appearing:
 
 


Edited by T.SELVAM - 14-Feb-2007 at 06:11
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 05:01

James Rennel is credited with surveying and preparation of a map of India.

 
However, there are questions unanswered, why there were no maps in India?
 
Rennel must have had used past knowledge to develop his cartographic skills.
 
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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 07:06
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">James Rennel is credited with surveying and preparation of a map of India.






However, there are questions unanswered, why there were no maps in India?


Rennel must have had used past knowledge to develop his cartographic skills.

</SPAN>

Well, he did. It wasn't as if he invented European cartography.

Geographers had been mapping Europe and the Americas for centuries as part of exploration and conquest, before laying into India in the 18th c. Shipbuilding (go where you like), artillery (sink whom you wish) and cartography (know where you're going or be able to find your way back after visiting for the first time) were key technologies in this.

If you apply European standard surveying and mapping techniques of the day, you will produce a map of India.

Mapping is a major European tool for conceptual control over most things. England mapped their colony Ireland in the 17th c., and India in the 19th. The techniques had been worked out long before Rennel tried to map India. Part of the point has been put as "becoming stronger than the native" (Bruno Latour, speaking of La Perousse; the French operated like the British).

Why would prior Indian maps be a prerequisite for this kind of survey?

Though it seems Rennel did profit from information about administrative divisions etc, from Mughal sources, but not maps though.
This from a quick google:
http://www.boloji.com/people/04014.htm
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 20:47
I think it is highly likely that Rennel took already existing maps of India (done by indians) when he made his maps.

It is unlikely he actually did the catography first hand, when he could just ask someone. Although he could've added details that would be useful to the English but not anyone else (or that the English didn't want anyone else to know that they knew), such as the depth of rivers
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 07:38
The oldest extent map was copied by a Buddhist priest in 1364 AD. It shows a pear shaped continent called Jambudvipa lying to the south of Mount Sumeru. In its center is Lake Anavatapta (Manasarovar) from which flow four rivers the Ganges, the Indus the Oxus and the Trim. The places visited by Hieun Tswang and routes are marked, the latters are in red. From study of this distorted map nothing much can be said of Sindh.
 
The following paper is interesting:
 
The art of map-making and some rare maps of the south asia and Sindh 140 AD to 1808 AD

 

By

M.H. Panhwar

Article from: Journal Sindh Quarterly, Vol. IX, 1981, No. 1, pp. 39-54.

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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 12:21

 

V     The statue of William Jones in St. Pauls Cathedral has similar features. Jones rests his hand on the sacred books of Hindus.

 

V     Particularly, the Manu Smruti has been upside down! Relief on the front of pedestal has a circular disc with its edge depicting Zodiac.

 

V     The inner details are from Puranas.

 

V     Thomas Maurice had given a Christian interpretation for accommodation of such graven images inside a Church!

History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2007 at 07:53
Can you post the photo?
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2007 at 08:19
Oh, I got it!
 
Here it is:
 
Another view showing how he handles the sacred book:
 
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2007 at 08:20
Image courtesy from:
 
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  Quote pumaaa123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2007 at 23:58
History of this sub-continent has been meddled by the non-Indians and much by the westerns.
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2007 at 05:22
Can you specify how exactly they did?
 
Your differentiation of "non-Indians" and "the westerners" is also significant. How they contributed their "mite" to such "meddling"?
 
Why now all Indians are keeping quite?
 
Because of chronology-meddling only, Indians are accused of for being illiterates, borrowing every thing from the Greeks and so on!
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