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The Hepthalite rule in Pakistan

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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Hepthalite rule in Pakistan
    Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 02:54
Came across this at random. The shape of the map intrigued me, looks a bit familiar?




More about the Hepthalies, aka Epthalites:


The Hephthalites were a people of obscure origin who at certain periods played an important role in the history of Persia and India[1]. They were called Ephthalites by the Greeks, and Hunas by the Indians. According to Chinese chronicles they were originally a tribe living to the north of the Great Wall and were known as Hoa or Hoa-tun. Elsewhere they were called White Huns or Hunas. However, There is no definite evidence that they are related to the Huns.

[Procopius] :

A Western student's first encounter with the mysterious Ephthalites, or Hephthalites, or White Huns of Central Asia, is probably via the writings of Procopius, that contemporary of the Byzantine Emperor Justinian and fierce polemicist against his sovereign and the Empress Theodora. Procopius recorded the observations of an ambassador traveling east with Byzantium's sometime enemies, the Persians, who had chosen for a time, and from the Byzantine perspective very fortunately, to war against their eastern neighbors for a change, the Ephthalites: "The Ephthalites are of the stock of the Huns in fact as well as in name; however they do not mingle with any of the Huns known to us.... They are the only ones among the Huns who have white bodies and countenances which are not ugly."

  -LoL wt? LOL

More from the same source:

Thus, even in their very first appearance, the question of the origins of this people comes into doubt. For if they are Huns, how is it that the appearance of these "White Huns" differs so markedly from that of the Huns proper? This question was not one which Procopius, so far from the Ephthalites, was in any position to determine. That modern researchers can do better is largely due to the survival of writings on the other end of the Central Asian wasteland, by those who were closer to the point of origin and encountered this group early in its history, that is, the Chinese.

To the Chinese, they were the Ye-ti-i-li-do or Yeda, even though the Chinese chroniclers seem to realize that the people called themselves the people of Hua (the similarity to Hun may help explain the origin of "White Hun") and that the Chinese terms came actually from the name of the Hua leader. Like Procopius, contemporary Chinese chroniclers had their own theories about Ephthalite origins. One thought that were related in some way to the Visha (Indo-Europeans known to the Chinese as the "Yueh Chih"), another, a branch of the Kao-ch`, a third, descendants of the general Pahua, a fourth descendants of Kang Chu and a fifth admits that he cannot make clear their origins at all. This should not discourage as it is not in the theories of such writers that we may find value, but rather in their factual observations which may lead to the answer.

Japanese researcher Kazuo Enoki takes on the theories of both the ancient and the modern writers, including the redoubtable Stein, knocking the legs out from one after another. Theories which are based on coincidence of name, e.g. Pahua and Hua, are unlikely in this part of the world which exhibits so many languages and so much linguistic adaptation and orthographic variation, he points out, and should not be upheld if other sorts of evidence do not support the reasoning. Stein's contention that the Ephthalites were of the Hunnish tribe and therefore of Turkish origin is dismissed largely on this basis. On the other hand, J. Marquart finds similarities between the terms for the Ephthalites in India and words in the Mongolian language, but this theory requires so many leaps between tongues that it remains quite unconvincing. Finally, there is a whole school of researchers attempting to prove this tribe a Turkish, albeit non-Hun, one. These too must rely only on flimsy name evidence. Instead, Enoki makes a convincing case that the Ephthalites are actually an Iranian group. His theory, it must be admitted, does not explain all, but there seems little against it. More importantly, it relies first on data which is generally agreed upon, namely, ancient observations of Ephthalite geographical movements and culture.

For Enoki, Ephthalite origins may be determined by considering where they were not, as well as by where their conquests drove their enemies. They were not previously north of the Tien Shan, thus they did not stem from that region. They drove the Kidarites out of Balkh to the west, thus they came originally from the east. By such reasoning, the Ephthalites are thought to have originated at Hsi-mo-ta-lo (southwest of Badakhshan and near the Hindu Kush), which tantalizingly, stands for Himtala, "snow plain", which may be the Sanskritized form of Hephthal.

Turning to the elements of Ephthalite culture, Enoki notes that Procopius' comments on their appearance while not decisive, are in favor of an Iranian theory. Similarly, the seventh century travels of Hsuan Chwang show that he found no physical difference between the descendants of the Ephthalites and their known Iranian neighbors. As for their language, commentators made clear that it was neither Turkish nor Mongol, which also seems to support an Iranian origin.

Iranian customs also are common in the Ephthalite world. For example, the practice of several husbands to one wife, or polyandry, was always the rule, which is agreed on by all commentators. That this was plain was evidenced by the custom among the women of wearing a hat containing a number of horns, one for each of the subsequent husbands, all of whom were also brothers to the husband. Indeed, if a husband had no natural brothers, he would adopt another man to be his brother so that he would be allowed to marry. Conjugal rights were traded off and children were assigned in turn with the oldest husband receiving the first and so on. Tellingly, polyandry has never been associated with any Hun tribe, but is known of several Central Asian ones, including the Aryans in India, other Indo-Europeans and probably in prehistoric Iran.

In their religious beliefs, the Ephthalites are said to have worshipped fire and sun gods. While either one is not unusual in any early culture around the world, both together is likely to indicate a Persian origin. In Persia, such beliefs were later to culminate in Zoroastrianism.

As part of their religious observance, the Ephthalites did not cremate, but as is reported by all commentators including Procopius, always buried their dead, either by constructing a tomb or under the ground. This is not consistent with the Zoroastrian practice of leaving the body in the open, but is clearly at odds with Turkish nomadic groups. The practice of inhumation then may simply indicate an Iranian group which had been sundered from the main branch at an early date and had adopted local Central Asian burial customs.

The rocketlike political career of the Ephthalites may be traced in Appendix A. It may be seen that its enormous rapid successes came not only out of ferocity in battle, but also from shrewd diplomacy. Like the Arabs, the Vikings and others in the parade of history, they seem to appear virtually out of nowhere and amass for themselves a huge area. Of their language, only four words are known including "Ephthalite" itself, and these dubious. Their coins are putative at best, their arts, wholly unknown.

Despite their apparent talents for war and diplomacy, however, they appear to have been harsh rulers disliked by rebellious subjects and thus their legacy is brief. Persian Emperor Chosroes, faced with the choice of war against the Turks or conquest of the Ephthalites, hardly needed a moment to opt for the latter -- ironic if the Ephthalites truly had an Iranian origin. But such nationalistic ideas were not the rule in those times. Not much has been written about their dramatic story since 1966, but Enoki hints that from the translation and study of possible Ephthalite documents unearthed at Lou Lan, we may someday learn more about this mysterious and fascinating people. Let us hope it will be so.


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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 02:58
More from wikipedia, interesting mention of the caste system, piqued my curiosity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephthalites

The Hephthalites were a people of obscure origin who at certain periods played an important role in the history of Persia and India. They were called Ephthalites by the Greeks, and Hunas by the Indians. According to Chinese chronicles they were originally a tribe living to the north of the Great Wall and were known as Hoa or Hoa-tun. Elsewhere they were called White Huns or Hunas. However, There is no definite evidence that they are related to the Huns.



The Hephthalites were an agricultural people with a developed set of laws. They were first mentioned by the Chinese, who described them (A.D. 125) as living in Dzungaria. They displaced the Scythians and conquered Sogdiana and Khorasan before 425. They crossed (425) the Syr Darya (Jaxartes) River and invaded Persia. Held off at first by Bahram Gur, they later (48385) succeeded in making Persia tributary. After a series of wars (50313) they were driven out of Persia, permanently lost the offensive, and were finally (557) defeated by Khosru I. The White Huns also invaded India and succeeded in extending their domain to include the Ganges valley. They temporarily overthrew the Gupta empire but were eventually driven out of India in 528 by a Hindu coalition. Although in Persia they had little effect, in India the White Huns influenced society by altering the caste system and disrupting the hierarchy of the ruling families. Some of the White Huns remained in India as a distinct group.


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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 03:14
Timeline of their rise and fall over a century and a quarter:

420-427    Ephthalites raid Persia as far west as modern Tehran.
427           Ephthalites suffer overwhelming defeat in Persia.
437           Chinese embassy to Tokharistan (area around Balkh) and   
                 Gandhara finds no sign of Ephthalites.
454           Ephthalites revenge earlier loss to Sassanid Persians.
456           Ephthalites send their first embassy to the Chinese.
457           Firuz (Peroz), former king of Persia, requests Ephthalite
                 assistance.
459           Firuz regains Persian throne with help of Ephthalite armies.
464-475    Wars between the former allies resolved with Persian tribute 
                 in 475.
465-470    Ephthalites conquer Gandhara, set up a Tegin (a viceroy).
470-480    War between Tegin of Gandhara and Gupta Empire of India.
473-479    Ephthalites conquer Sogdiana, driving the Kidarites  west.         
                 next conquering Khotan and Kashgar (in the Tarim Basin).
480-500    Gupta empire collapses. Tegin rules of North & Central India.
484           Firuz initiates new war against the Ephthalites: a disaster!
486           Firuz' heir Kubad takes refuge with Ephthalites following a coup.
488           Kubad regains the throne with Ephthalite assistance.
493-508    Ephthalites extend power as far as Zungaria, then Turfan and
                 Karashar (in modern China).
497           Kubad deposed and escapes to a second refuge with the
                 Ephthalites.
500           Ephthalites place Kubad on Sassanid throne a second time
                 (dies 531).
503-513    Kubad makes war on the Ephthalites. Peace in 513 lasts.
522           Apex of Ephthalite power. Chief of the Juan-Juan nomads flees
                 to the Ephthalites for protection. Ephthalites dominate north  
                 and south of the Tien Shan range. Control as far as Tieh-lo in
                 the south, Ci`ih-le^ (Kao-ch`e^) in the north, at least to
                 Khotan in the east probably more, and up to Persia in the west.
                 A separate Ephthalite Empire controls much of India. Forty 
                 countries (including Sassanid Persia) are in tribute.  
                 Ephthalite
                 centers are at Ghur, Balkh, Warwaliz (north of today's
                 Kunduz
                 near the source of the Oxus) and Hsi-mo-ta-lo. The entire
                 empire probably comprises fifty to sixty thousand individuals.
531           Chosroes succeeds his father Kubad in Persia.
532           Revolts in India; Ephthalites lose most of East & Central India.
532-542    Fleeing ruler conquers the Kashmir for a short reign.
552           Turks overthrow Avars and begin petty conflicts with
                 Ephthalites.
c. 565       Turks and Chosroes (Khusrau) of Persia ally to capture and
                divide Ephthalite empire.
c. 570       Ephthalite rule overthrown in India.



And nobody really seems to have much of a clue who there were or where exactly they came from!

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 06:52
Almost all of Pakistan, except of Balochistan.
 
 
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 19:46
Yeah Most of Pakistan........But, Do we still have people with Hun surname in Pakistan....can anyone help??
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 21:11
One more thing guys,
 
These white Huns had nothing to do with original huns......In fact When they were attacked by Kok-turks or genuine Huns, They had to enter India in order to save their life....The Indian could not distinguish them with the Actual Huns..The Indian thought that it is athe wave of Hunas only....
 
The similarity between the names of Hepthalites and Huns also created the confusion....But we know that people ruling in nearby areas had the practice of copying names to get fame...(like using the title shah, khan or Han)
 
The first attack under "Chu-Han" (CHU-Khan) in 455 AD was repelled back by SkandaGupta and India was saved from Huns for a short period of 10 years. In 465 AD fresh Hun armies attacked Guptas under Tour-han (TOOR KHAN) or Tourman-1.
 
They were not Huns they were actually a part of Yuhechee (Yu-chi) tribe, Like Kushans.
 
We have to go deeper to understand the realation between Hepthalites and Kushans......
 
 
1. Hsiung-Nu (chin dynasty) under Tou-man defeated Yuchees in around 178 BC. (Note here The name of the king of Hsiung-Nu was Tou-man).
Before this Yuchees were clearly deeply involved in the local politics (though they were called Iranian by origin, They aquired all the local customs and traditions). Tou-man had conflicts with his son Mao-Tun for that, the Yu-chi were given mao-tun as a hostage by his father T'ou-man. T'ou-man then led the Hsiung-nu in an attack upon the Yu-chee, hoping that Mao-tun would be killed by the Yu-chi. However, Mao-tun escaped and in 209 BC killed his father. After his fathers death Mao-tun conducted campaigns against Yu-chees.
 
2. They defeated Sai (or Sythians) who had to fled to south (Sind, Punjab and Gujrat, where they ruled until 400 AD)...
 
3. The Hsiung-Nu agian fell upon the Yuchees in around 130 BC and pushed them westwards before reaching Bactria. In addition to it a group of Yu-chi were left behind, possibly conquered by the Wu-sun or Hiung-nu. This group is called the little Yu-chi and the larger group which continued on, the Ta Yu-chee (or great Yu-chi) to distinguish them.
 
4. They were driven in to the Bactria region...
 
5. The Yu-chee conquered Bactria in around 120 BC and they divided it into a number of essentially kingdoms (five, according to Chinese sources).
 
6. It was Kajula Kadphises who overcame the other YuChee monarchs and united the whole horde to his own will. This is said to have occurred more than a hundred years after the conquest of Bactria by the Yu-chi. It has also been suggested that Kajula's Grandfather married a Greek princess (daughter, niece, possibly of the Hermaus who appears on Kajulas coins). It seems likely from all this that he came to power some time in the first quarter of the first century AD and that he had achieved the unification of the Yu-chi by about 40 AD.
 
7. At this time that the Kushan kings overran northern India. They conquered the Indus valley, which had previously been in the hands of Parthian kings.
 
8. The Kushans ruled until 363 AD. But they started declining after the death of Vasudeva in 225 AD. During this time (225-363 AD) The other Yuchee tribes started inclining....
 
9. The three dynasties (Yuchees by origin) that followed the Kushans were, the Kushanshahs, Lesser Kushans and Kidarites.
 
10. The Kidarites or chionites were also called Red-Huns.
 
11. The Kidarites tried very hard to establish themselves as the successors of the Kushan Empire; they are called Kushan and Yu-chi by Western and eastern sources; they issued coins that copied those of the Sasanians, the Kushanshahs and the last Kushan kings. They failed to achieve a revival of the Kushan Empire. Though they conquered the regions and united them, for the last time, under a single government their empire was transient and superficial. The Kidarite Empire never matched the artistic or urban success of the Kushans. And at the end of the fifth century the Kidarites were overwhelmed by the Hephalite.
 
12. There is a striking resemblance in The Deformed Heads of the early Yu-chees and Hephthalite kings on their coinage.
 
13. Also see the name of the Hepthalite Kings were:
 
Tourman Akhsunvar (420 - 470)

Tourman (496 - 502)

Mihirakula (502 - 530)

 
The name Touman is similar as the king of Hsiung-Nu...Which Shows that the hepthalites had the Yuchee origin...
 
14. Due to their yuchee origin they were quickly assimilated into north indian population as hindu (or Bodh) kshatriyas without any hassle.
 
So here we can say that Hepthalites were a group of Yuchees (same as Kushans and Kidarites) who tried to settle down at the remenants of their ancestors when drove out from Bactria by Kok-Turks. But they were mistaken as Huns by local Indians.
 
Regards
 
Ashok Harsana
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 08:27
I've posted about this topic before and their relationship with the Khalaj Turks and Ghaljai Pashtuns here:



    Iranian Huns (Ephtalites) and their Relationship with Afghans


    
    

Edited by Afghanan - 26-Nov-2006 at 08:44
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 10:54
I don't see how they can be called Iranian when they originated from close to Mongolia. They were described as having lighter skin and more Europid features[implicitly described by Procopius] than regular Mongoloid turks and Mongoloid Huns but that does not automatically make them Iranian. The Chinese mention them as originating far away from Iran in the second century. 
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 20:28
Originally posted by Afghanan

I've posted about this topic before and their relationship with the Khalaj Turks and Ghaljai Pashtuns here: 

They are commonly known as "Kuchi", a term derived from the Persian kuch, to move or migrate. In eastern Afghanistan, kuchi is applied to all nomads who live in black goat hairtents (ghizhdi) and are seen as having a distinct culture, habitation and economy that sets them apart from the sedentary villagers whose lands they pass through. 

Recently links have been made between the rug patterns of Kuchis and that of the ancient Tocharians.  J. Barry O'Connel Jr is quoted as saying:

"This is one of 9 known examples in the world. These all apparently were bought in the market in Murkur Afghanistan, which is a major market for Pashtun Nomads often called Cutchis (Kuchis). Similar rugs were found in the Tarim Basin Archeological digs. Those were attributed to the Tocharians
     
    

 
 
Are you talking about Gujjars of Afghanistan here..???
 
Gujjars in India has 100% similar lifestyle and characterstics as you explained for Kuchis.
 
1. Gujjars were called KUCHI-LO by "Huein-Xang")
 
2. Gujjars live in Black tents.
 
3. They have a complete different lifestyle as compared to the villagers whose lands they pass through..
 
4. Gujjars are directly related to Tocharians (Kushans & Yu-chis) as i explained in my last post ....
 
Regards
 
Ashok Harsana
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 04:15
Originally posted by maqsad

I don't see how they can be called Iranian when they originated from close to Mongolia. They were described as having lighter skin and more Europid features[implicitly described by Procopius] than regular Mongoloid turks and Mongoloid Huns but that does not automatically make them Iranian. The Chinese mention them as originating far away from Iran in the second century. 
 
The evidence suggests the Hephthalite leadership was descended from the Yueh-Chi, while the bulk of the common folk were drawn from the general Hunnish population of the steppes.  Apparently, when the Hephthalites were on the rise in the late 5th Century, they had managed to become dominant over the entire steppe region, absorbing remnants of Hsiung-nu and even Attila's Huns.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 11:31
Originally posted by ashokharsana

Yeah Most of Pakistan........But, Do we still have people with Hun surname in Pakistan....can anyone help??
 
You, like most others on here, read too much into a name. Where India and Pakistan is concerned, it's a joke to do this. India was the word given to Pakistan for centuries by the Aryan inhabitants of the Indus, and by 1947, the Indus Valley became known as Pakistan, the Gangetic plains as India. So, names don't tell much in this case do they?
 
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 11:38
 
Ashok,
 
Gurjjars are not descended from the Kushans or Tocharians. The more likelier people that might have become Kushans are Pashtuns, but even that isnt sure.
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 06:05
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

 
Ashok,
 
Gurjjars are not descended from the Kushans or Tocharians. The more likelier people that might have become Kushans are Pashtuns, but even that isnt sure.
 
Hello Freind.....
 
You need to know a lot about Gujjars and their origin.....
 
You can not challenge the knowlidge of world class historians over this topic...Its a hardcore truth that it were Gujjars, who were called Yuhechee by chinese.....
 
This fact is supported by even the text books of india at high school level......CAN U DENY IT ??
 
Let me make it clear to everyone....
 
It is  now proved to us that Hepthalites were a group of Yuhechee people...Right ??
 
And Hepthalites were assimilated into gujjar population after 5th century......WHY ???  It is said that they almost disapeared from the political scenerio of India, which is not true,,,,they were very well into indian politics But Not as Hepthalites or Huns,,they ruled as Gujjars....
 
Lets go step by step..
 
Gujjars were the people who assimilated Hepthalites into their own caste, as kshatriyas, after the great Gurjar Yasodharman defeated MihirKula in 528 AD. Those Gujjars were very well aware of their blood relation with the hepthalites ...We have lacs of gujjars with Hun surname...Remember the famous Hepthallite rulers Tourman or Tour-Han, Chu-Han, MihirGula etc Their descendents Touhars or Tours, Chuhans are numerous in north India (specially near the places where these hepthalites were centered)........You should come to india you will find how these hepthalites altered the royal chronology....It is strange but true that after the hepthallites assimilation into gujjar population every second gujjar ruler who ruled between 600 to 1300 AD was from Hepthallite origin....Touars, Chuhans etc.... The name of most famous Gujjar ruler Mihir Bhoj who ruled 90% of the north India, reminds us of Mihir-Gul.....we find many inscription which relate the Pratihar rulers and Tomar (Tuar) rulers with the hepthalites or white Hunas.......
 
 
Yuhechee were Gujjars :
 
Take some examples:
 
You must be knowing that we Gujjars are the only caste in Indian Subcontinent which have  a subclan named Kushan or Kashan. You can easily find these kushanas spreaded over the ex-territory of Great Kushan rulers...
 
The larger group of Yuhechees Ta-Yuhechee group (Big Yuhechee) came to indian subcontinent through tarim basin ..Today also we have Bid Gujjars (big Gujjars).....And almost every Gujjar in india claim their descendence from this Bir-gujjar group.....
 
 
We have Lacs of Gujjars with the Surname "Chechi" Do u have any explanation to this.....This word is directly taken from Yuchee....(Remember the russian province chechenya, Which was formed by the smaller Yuhechee group which left behind during the course of migration, Would you believe that the Poeple of Chechen lost thier caste and relegion but they still use their surnames.....Like Basayev, Kasanav, Bagrate , these all are pure Gujjar surnames...)
 
 
By any phonetic rule the chinese pronounciation for Gujjar was either Kuchee or Yuchee so think twice when u challenge any one over this topic..
 
I can also prove that Chionites (kidarites) or red Huns were also Gujjars by caste as they were also a group of Yuhechee confederation...
 
 
Regards
 
Ashok Harsana


Edited by ashokharsana - 28-Nov-2006 at 06:33
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 06:23

 

Ashok, give me a link I can read plz about Gurjjar/Kushan/Tocharian connections.

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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 20:58
Read his thread.
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  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 21:27
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

 

Ashok, give me a link I can read plz about Gurjjar/Kushan/Tocharian connections.

 
 
Sure brother....Check the following links
 
 
 
 
 
 
The books written by world famous historians like Bingley, Cunningham, Col. Tod, Km Munshee, Cv Vaidya and Rana Ali hassan Chauhan also support this very fact.
 
Regards
 
Ashok Harsana
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 12:08
It is obvious that the Ephtalites did not dissappear and reappear in only one form. The Ephtalites made up the gene pool of not only Afghans, but Persians, Rajputs, Punjabis, and other ethnic groups that exist today.

Kushans ruled Tokharistan, and today Tokharistan is inhabited by Tajiks and Pashtuns. Before they invaded Afghanistan they took over the Ferghana valley, where they most likely added to the make up of the Uzbek and Tajiks of the north.

You cant expect a widely dispersed nomadic people to stay the same in history, it is in their culture to adapt, and there is no doubt in my mind they exist in the different ethnic groups that are around in present day.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 12:13
Originally posted by ashokharsana

Originally posted by Afghanan

I've posted about this topic before and their relationship with the Khalaj Turks and Ghaljai Pashtuns here:

They are commonly known as "Kuchi", a term derived from the Persian kuch, to move or migrate. In eastern Afghanistan, kuchi is applied to all nomads who live in black goat hairtents (ghizhdi) and are seen as having a distinct culture, habitation and economy that sets them apart from the sedentary villagers whose lands they pass through.


Recently links have been made between the rug patterns of Kuchis and that of the ancient Tocharians. J. Barry O'Connel Jr is quoted as saying:


"This is one of 9 known examples in the world. These all apparently were bought in the market in Murkur Afghanistan, which is a major market for Pashtun Nomads often called Cutchis (Kuchis). Similar rugs were found in the Tarim Basin Archeological digs. Those were attributed to the Tocharians       




Are you talking about Gujjars of Afghanistan here..???


Gujjars in India has 100% similar lifestyle and characterstics as you explained for Kuchis.


1. Gujjars were called KUCHI-LO by "Huein-Xang")


2.Gujjars live in Black tents.


3. They have a complete different lifestyle as compared to the villagers whose lands they pass through..


4. Gujjars are directly related to Tocharians (Kushans & Yu-chis) as i explained in my last post ....


Regards


Ashok Harsana


On the link I provided, I describe the Kochi in detail. Kochi is an area near the Tarim Basin in China also. Kochis in Afghanistan are the largest nomadic people within the country and are made almost exclusively of Ghaljai Pashtuns. The Ghaljai are linked with the Khalaj Turks, who are also affiliated with the nomadic Qashqai Iranians. The Khalaj Turks are affiliated exclusively by Muslim historians with the Hayatilah (Ephtalites).
    
The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 00:58

What did they look like?  Does anyone have any depictions of Hephthalites (other than coins) that they could show here?

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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 02:54
They only description we have is from the greeks who said they looked lighter than the regular huns and had more caucasian features. Whether that was the footsoldiers or their governing elite is not known. Perhaps there might be hints in a translation of Procopius's chronicles.
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