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9 Oghuzes and Sihun Oghuzes

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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 9 Oghuzes and Sihun Oghuzes
    Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 03:51

See, old Farsi didn't have 'q'. It is believed, 'q' existed in a mother European language. Anyhow, in old Iranian texts, instead, 'kh' was used. present day 'qaf' is an import from Arabic. 'Q' should be pronounced the way Kurds do; tougher than 'gh'. But modern Iranians, I mean the standard form today, doesn't distinguished between 'q' and 'gh'. But for you, they're not the same, are they?

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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 08:08
The name Oghuz, you know it, means 'peope, tribes'.
 
No
 
Name of Oguz

       The name of Oguz is derived from the word of "ok" (arrow). The word of ok has also the meaning of "tribe" in Turkish language. As a matter of fact, this word was translated into Chinese language as "tribe" even in those periods (for example On-ok = Ten tribes).

       Accordingly, the suffix of z that was the plural suffix in the ancient Turkish language was attached to the word "ok" and "the name of "Oguz" was derived thereof. In fact, the name of "Oguz" is not an "ethnical" name and it is a word that directly defined the meaning of "Turkish tribes".

       The name of "Oguz" has been firstly observed in the 1st inscription ("Six Oguz tribal union") in the banks of the Barlık Stream (Ulu-kem: flows into Yenisey River). It is the subject matter that 6 tribes had integrated and formed a "tribal union". Since the inscription belonged to their beys, it should be admitted that these Oguz people survived within these environs in the form of a union. However, it seems possible to date back the identification of Oguz style to the very ancient periods.

       Within the Chinese resources, a tribe named as O-kut (there was not the name of Turk in those periods) pertaining to the 2nd century BC was cited. This name was the Chinese form of the Turkish name of "Ogur". This difference has resulted from the difference of pronunciation of some Turkish communities that spelled the voice of z as r in Turkish language. In other words, it is the expression of the name of Oguz in R Turkish. The region of Tabargatay-Kobdo was indicated as the region of O-kut people within the Chinese resources. As it has been known, this region was a region of Turks.

 

So, necessarily 9 Oghuzes and Sihun Oghuzes were not the same soceity.

Misleading, the terminology "Oguz" does not refer to ethnicity or race, it refers to confederations of Turk tribes. The Toquz-Oguz were sometimes cited as the "nine tribes of the Turks", Oguz was a pollitical name not one of ethnicity, as they were all Turks. Therefore trying to split this from that just because of pollitical name is ridiculous as they were all Turks.
 
Well, the name Qazaq is a new word; but could you say their ancestors didn't exist before 1500 AD?
 
No, all of humanity has ancestors, before 1500 AD ofcourse Kazak Turks had ancestors, there a branch of Turks.
 
The same applies of Seljuks. They're ancestors of today Turkish people, although the name differs.
 
No, Seljuk's were formed by Oguz Turks and traced descendancy to "Oguz Khan". They began in today's Turkmenistan and are the reason why most Turks West of Turkenistan area are Oguz Turk.
 
 
 
 
The Seljuk TUrks in Yellow on the map began in the Turkmenistan area, there ancestors today are the Turks of Azerbaycan, Turkey, Turkmenistan. The people of Turkmenistan are the least mixed of these Turks.
 
 
 But the most correct Turkmen tongue today is spoken by Salyr, Saryq, Ersaris.
 
 That's subjective. Plus there are many "Salyr" in Turkey, so many villages are
called "Salyr".
called Salyr.
 
About, 'ben' it is definately because of different geographical location. So you agree Sihun Oghuzes and 9 Oghuzes used to live in their own places and not together.
 
Initially you could be correct, however, we all know that the tribes united to form a huge confederacy of Turks.
 
no surprise to see an original Turkmen (Tangriberdi) who's become a Turk started this agian.
 
A Turk-men doesn't need to state and brag he/she's a Turkmen, other's should realise and call the person a Turk-men that is a true TurkmenWink
 
Turkmens are Turks and the starting point of most Turks West of Turkmenistan, great went you think about it.
 
I only understand a few words. The structure is completely different with Turkmen.
 
Again subjective, today's Standard Turkmen can be easily read and understood by Anatolian-Azeri Turkish speakers.
 
Go on Turkmenistan forums, they have many Anatolian-Azeri Turk members who quickly pick up the differences and adapt easily.
 
 
The problem is you treat "Oguz" as an ethnic term, Oguz were Turk tribes in a pollitical union, this union kept growing untill it reached the Legendary Status and founded huge influential states. The Oguz confederancy have created some of the greatest Turkish states. The Turks of Turkmenistan and West are therefore collectively called Oguz and have the Oguz dialect. You say its only Southern Turkmens, but the most populated part of Turkmenistan is the South and West. Linguistically, literature wise for example, Dede Qorqud, Karacaoglan, Nasreddin Hodja etc, culturally (carpets, tamga's, traditions, metal-working/jewellry, dress like Uc Eteks, Foods, Drinks etc), historically and so on.
 
Its somthing to embrace and promote, not hide away and supress. There is no Iron Curtain anymore and alot of interest in promoting the connections of the Oguz TurksSmile
 
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 10-Sep-2006 at 08:10
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 09:11
Originally posted by gok_toruk

See, old Farsi didn't have 'q'. It is believed, 'q' existed in a mother European language. Anyhow, in old Iranian texts, instead, 'kh' was used. present day 'qaf' is an import from Arabic. 'Q' should be pronounced the way Kurds do; tougher than 'gh'. But modern Iranians, I mean the standard form today, doesn't distinguished between 'q' and 'gh'. But for you, they're not the same, are they?

 
OK. just to differentiate here. tell me if this is correct:
 
qaf is just a more guttaral sounding ghayn?  Old Persian did have the ghayn sound... I have heard different accents and they prounounce the gh/q with different strengths.
 
And yes, the sound I did not know the difference, just redundant lettering as far as I was concerned, same witht he numerous s z and t symbols in the alphabet.
 
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 11:38
Yes, 'qaf' is just a more glutteral sounding 'ghayn'.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 11:51

Bulldog, it's quite obvious you haven't been able to defend yourself against those numbers. You're just trying to get converstaion to another place which is not about the topic. I can, forever, this way:

the accepted theory about the word 'oghuz' is the case that it means 'tribes'. It has gained international reputation. In central asian dialects, Oghuz simply means 'people; tribes'.
 
They surely wasn't a distinct race; but a distinct geographical group. Please, stick to the topic. I said it's recorded in the history that Sihun Oghuzes and 9 Oghuzes were not of the same origin. Also, I explained, just having the name 'people or tribes' (Oghuz) doesn't bring any relationship. Could we say 'Muhammet Ali', 'Muhammet Amin' and 'Muhammet Hasan' has something to do, just because all of them have got the name Muhammet? Read the numbers again.
 
So you understand your ancestors spoke like you. Ofcourse there is a little bit different. But it won't change the language. Turkmen people have always spoken Turkmen. Kazak people always have spoken Kazak. And Anatolian Turkish people have always spoken Turkish. Qashqary pointed out examples which is exclusively for Anatolian and Azeri Turkish; not Turkmen.
 
There was two groups of Seljuk Turks in central asia. In fact, the one who went to Turkey, in fact, escaped the other, because they were the loosers. In fact, the name 'seljuk (with this structure and pronounciation) is not valid in Turkmen's tongue.
 
Turkmens are direcet descendants of 9 Oghuz. Who are Seljuks? Even the word is of Anatolian origin; and not of a Turkmen dialect. See, I know the meaning; but it's not normal for a Turkmen. It's like Uighur way of saying 'qartash'. They say 'qerdash'. I can understand it. But it's not normal for me.
 
Seems like you don't know much about 9 Oghuz history. Salyrs are the oldest Turkmen tribe and the most correct Turkmen language. The name 'Salyr' is observed in Uighur texts wich dates back to before 1000 AD.
 
Why are you repeating the same sentence? Or haven't you read what I told you. The modern Turkmen is based on INFORMAL, CONVERSATIONAL language of southern tribes. That's why you see similarities in this language and Anatolian Turkish and Azeri.
 
 
 
 


Edited by gok_toruk - 10-Sep-2006 at 11:58
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 11:55

People like Nasreddin Hoja is also famous in Iran. So Iranians are Turks as well?

See, Bulldog, you OBVIOUSLY have neglected the facts. If you're going to continue like this, I mean playing with words, instead of talking on those numbers, I won't reply you anymore; simply because, in this way, we can continue to anytime you might think.
 
Answer my question. Are you able to prove those facts are wrong?
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  Quote Tangriberdi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 12:07
Originally posted by gok_toruk

 no surprise to see an original Turkmen (Tangriberdi) who's become a Turk

Can a Turkmen become a Turk again and again while Turk includes Turkmen Kyrgyz and so on., while Turkmen/Oguz is a tribal name and Turk is an etnic name?
Yes May be I am of Turkmen descent from maternal side. They are from Iran.
My father is a chepni from Turkey. Chepni people are told to be Turkmens . My father believes so. Our history books confirms it.
How can you expect me to say my father you are not a Turkmen.
I am an individual in Turkish society. I am proud of being Turk as much as I am proud  of being Turkmen.
In my opinion Both is the same.
Nothing more. Also no need to discriminate between them.
Why do you think three president from Turkey Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan repeatedly say that we are one nation and two states..
Why do some Turkmens in Turkmenistan call Turkey Gunbatar Turkmenistan?
Sorry buddy. I can not get your point. Sorry.
History is not a certain and definite science. I do not rely on science but my heart which says me that I am a Turkmen, so Turk and that the two are the same.
Although there are linguıistic and racial differeces, there is a national awareness about the sameness in both society.
You can think differently. I respect. But you have no right to say me I am not a Turk or Turkmen. One who will decide about that is just me.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 12:12

For the time being, only people from Turkey are called Turk. I meant Turkish people. That's all.

We've got people who think Central Asians are mostly of Mongol origin. Different people believe different things. Let anybody tell his own idea. But when it comes to a theory, provide proofs.
 
And you can decide who you are, in anyway you please. It's all up to you wether to rely just on your own ideas or rather on historical documents. I don't say you're not a Turkmen. You claim to be a Turkmen? So you are. But, see, anybody who claims he's your father's boy, he won't become your brother.


Edited by gok_toruk - 10-Sep-2006 at 12:13
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 12:20

You guys probably want to me say 'oh, brother (this is the word heard from virtually of Turkish nationalists or should I say country lovers), we're all the same nation (so where are all those geographical groups who make different looks and physique). Our languages are all understandable (totally lie. You've got to practice a lot and if you do so, so you LEARN a new dialect). We should be proud of our history (every empire had its own advantages and disadvantages, what's the pride for?). We should be united and a lot more. That's why when I say we're not the same people, you get angry or think I'm racist.

See, I don't believe in stuff like this. For me, black, white, Caucaid, Mongoloid, Iranian, Altaic and all of those classifications are not important. I don't care for such nonsense. Bring me a good hearted man, who's not within all those social, political and whatever limits and I'll be his friend till my death. What is Turk? In fact, your expections seem to be more racism than what I say.
 
I'm just trying to see things through the windows of realism. That's all. Take care...
 
 


Edited by gok_toruk - 10-Sep-2006 at 12:24
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 18:29
Bulldog, it's quite obvious you haven't been able to defend yourself against those numbers.
 
Your waffling again, forget the attacks try respond to the material provided, its alot more convincing then trying to deflect from the conversation by attempting to create provocations.
 
the accepted theory about the word 'oghuz' is the case that it means 'tribes'.
 
Accepted? read what I wrote in my last post to understand where the word originated from.
 
 
And Anatolian Turkish people have always spoken Turkish. Qashqary pointed out examples which is exclusively for Anatolian and Azeri Turkish; not Turkmen.
 
Nonsense, why do you carry on trying to push an impossible theory, there were no Anatolian-Azeri Turkish accents in Qashqary's time. He specifically comments on "Oguz Turks"-Seljuks. They are also called Turkmen. They began in Turkmenistan and are the ancestors of Turkey-Azeri-Turkmen Turks.
 
Its universally accepted Turkmenistan and most Turkish spoken West of it is "Oguz Turkish branch". This is a fact, they are all connected and very close. Turkmen is not a "different" ethnicity, its a pollitical name, Turkmens are Turks and national ancestor of Turkey-Azeri Turks.
 
There was two groups of Seljuk Turks in central asia. In fact, the one who went to Turkey, in fact, escaped the other, because they were the loosers. In fact, the name 'seljuk (with this structure and pronounciation) is not valid in Turkmen's tongue.
 
Why don't you just write your own version of history, its clear you actually believe this story. Your just nit-picking now and being ridiculous.
 
Turkmens are direcet descendants of 9 Oghuz. Who are Seljuks?
 
Go and read some basic history.......
 
One of the most important states that the Turks had founded in the course of the history is the Great Seljuk State. Seljuks are the members of Kinik branch pertaining to 24 Oguz tribes. Oguz people lived in the region that was located between the east of Syr-Darya (Seyhun) and the Caspian Sea and the Lake Aral in the century X. Kinik branch resided in a region near the mouth of the Syr-Darya River among these people.
In the beginning of the century X, Oguz State was ruled by a ruler that born the title of "Yabgu". Dukak (or Dokak) titled as Temir-Yalig (with iron springs) who was the ancestor of Seljuk family had had a strong military and political rank and position within the Oguz State. Actually, he was a strong man like iron and he also was a reliable and a mentor person.
 
 
The Selchuk Turks were originally from todays Turkmenistan area, and are part of Turkmenistan's history.
 
It's like Uighur way of saying 'qartash'. They say 'qerdash'.
 
This is nitpicking, after thousands of Km distance such little variations in words are actually quite amazing.
 
 
People like Nasreddin Hoja is also famous in Iran. So Iranians are Turks as well?
 
More nit-picking, Nasreddin Hoja was a Turks, theres around 25 million or more Turks in Iran telling his stories, there fantastic so obviously there gonna get famous.
 
 
You guys probably want to me say 'oh, brother we're all the same nation (so where are all those geographical groups who make different looks and physique).....
 
Don't worry its clear who you are and what your purpose is. That's why I've been told by many Turkmen and Ozbek's they've booted you out of all their forums.
 
As I said, real Turkmens don't need to brag and state their a "real" original pure Turkmen every two seconds, real Turkmens are called Turks by othersWink
 
We all know those people who run away from down South to drink their heads off in Turkmenistan and escape the situation down thereWink
 
It must hurt you that most Turkmens don't have the SLIGHTEST in common with you, that they want to strenghten ties with other Turks, that they feel connected to Turkey and have phrases like "Iki Dowlet Bir Millet"...........
 
Turks of Turkmenistan, Azerbaycan, Turkey are connected linguistically, culturally, historically and share a bond. If you can't accept this don't take it out on others. The official Turkmen of today is here to stay and in a few generations everyone will learn in standard Turkmen and easily read and understand Anatolian-Azeri Turkish.
 
Your not the only Turkmen here remember that, stop trying to give the people a bad name. Anybody can find inperfections if that's their aim, anybody can nitpick and find slight differences and then blow them up and exagerate them. It all depends on subjective perception my friend. Try looking out of another window you might get a better view your side seems clouded. You talk about theories which you created and only you believe.
 
Peace
 


Edited by Bulldog - 10-Sep-2006 at 18:33
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 18:40
Tangriberdi
Can a Turkmen become a Turk again and again while Turk includes Turkmen Kyrgyz and so on., while Turkmen/Oguz is a tribal name and Turk is an etnic name?
Yes May be I am of Turkmen descent from maternal side. They are from Iran.
My father is a chepni from Turkey. Chepni people are told to be Turkmens . My father believes so. Our history books confirms it.
How can you expect me to say my father you are not a Turkmen.
I am an individual in Turkish society. I am proud of being Turk as much as I am proud  of being Turkmen.
In my opinion Both is the same.
Nothing more. Also no need to discriminate between them.
Why do you think three president from Turkey Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan repeatedly say that we are one nation and two states..
Why do some Turkmens in Turkmenistan call Turkey Gunbatar Turkmenistan?
Sorry buddy. I can not get your point. Sorry.
History is not a certain and definite science. I do not rely on science but my heart which says me that I am a Turkmen, so Turk and that the two are the same.
Although there are linguıistic and racial differeces, there is a national awareness about the sameness in both society.
You can think differently. I respect. But you have no right to say me I am not a Turk or Turkmen. One who will decide about that is just me.
 
 
Don't worry, visit Turkmenistan and you'll be welcomned as a true brother and accepted as a Turk as one of them by the people. If somebody came
from far away to Turkey spoke Turkish but with an interesting accent and said
they were a Turk the Turks in Turkey treat them with great respect and love.
Its natural, its always amazing to meet your people from such far distances apart
and you can feel the love and bond in the people's eyes. The same for when 
a Anatolian Turk goes to Turkmenistan, speaks Turkish and says I'm in 
my "ATAYURDU" Wink
 
Don't let this guy turn you against Turk-mens, he's not a representive or example. 
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 04:26

Waffling or not, what you do is just going off topic. Do you know what this topic is about? Have you brought any proofs against those numbers I wrote?

You haven't read those numbers at all. There was two distinct groups of Oghuzes. Sihun Oghuzes are the ancestors of modern day Turkish and Azeri people while Turkmens are direct descendants of 9 Oghuz. Qashqary told that 9 Oghuz dialect was different from Sihun Oghuz accent. All historians stated they (9 Oghuz and Sihun Oghuz) were different societies.
 
You haven't been in Iran. Iranians think Molla Nasreddin was an Iranian. It's their idea. You're stating also your idea. Give proofs.
 
Which Oghuz? Ofcourse Sihun Oghuz. And Sihun Oghuzes are different from 9 Oghuz.
 
It's not my own theory. It's the way they believe in Central Asia. Seljuks were only a family of Sihun Oghuzes. There were also a group of Seljuks who were not Moslems. You don't know even this fact, how come you're saying Turkmens and Turkish people are the same?
 
Yeah, exactly Turkmens have still got 9 tribes, just like the way they had all the time. Sihun Oghuz had 24 tribes which none of them was the same with 9 Oghuz.
 
See, here, they've changed the sound system which is not because of distance. If so, how come Altai Turks still say 'qardash'? and not 'qerdash'? They live far from Turkey.
 
There's no need to you the new member to say who I am. Lots of my friends have neglected you so far. Just get online and I'll let you know how some people of AE thinks about you.
 
I also know you have gas problems in your cities; winter is a great problem. I know also only a few cities like Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir and Antaliya worth to visit (I mean no fair distribution of wealth). Central Asians who have been their not by air, say no security and most of people are poor. You think Turkey is the ideal Turkic sate? But what does it have to this topic?
 
Who's the other Turkmen here? Tangriberdi which can't speak proper Turkmen? Which doesn't know his fathers until 7th ancestor? Which don't know Turkmen family names and their realtionship with subfamilies and tribes? He just claims he's a Turkmen. You think that's enough?
 
Mind your own business. You're not the one to decide whether my window is clear or not. By the way, alright I created all those numbers (they're just quotes by historians). CAN YOU PROVE THEY'RE LIES? Or are you just sitting back, moving your head and saying 'no, you're wrong'?
 
My friends' ideas about me won't change by a new comer. Think about yourself.


Edited by gok_toruk - 11-Sep-2006 at 04:41
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 04:55

Turkmens have not much in common with Turkish or Azeri people. Count from language to culture. The structure of the languages are different. You also (like modern day Mongols) lack the use of 'aqa'. The way a Turkmen (especiall northern tribes) speak are quite different from a Turkish; even when it comes to express yourself:

We don't say 'I don't go' as in Turkish. We say' I the one who doesn't go' (there's not 'am'). This is somehow close to paleo - siberian dialects. But if you use this pattern in Turkish, it would be 'ben gitmeyenim'. It definately has its meaning; simply because it's Turkic; but it's not normal. And a lot more, for which I can start another thread. The way we speaks, differ very much.
 
What's the common culture your'e talking about? Even then way we behave's different from yours.
 
You're proud of your nomads in Turkey. You think they've kept the old customs. Alright, come to Central Asia and you'll see Turkish nomads will be like comparing a city dwelling man with a Turkmen or a Kazak nomad. You're quite westernized. About carpets, since Turkmens are really good at this and you CAN'T tell me if they're the same or not, in international bazzar, Turkmen carpet is distinct from a Turkish carpet. What's the similarity you all talk about?
 
Stop talking abou the same culture. It's a common word used which doesn't make any sense. Ask any Central Asian about culture and see if yours is the same with ours. Turkish people are classified as westerners or europeans in Central Asia. What is the same culture, the same language?

Edited by gok_toruk - 11-Sep-2006 at 04:57
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 07:18
Waffling or not, what you do is just going off topic. Do you know what this topic is about? Have you brought any proofs against those numbers I wrote?

Your like a broken record, all your "theories" have been de-bunked don't you get it.

Oguz is not an ethnic name, and it can be simply translated into "Turkic tribes". The "Oguz Turk branch" or "western Turk branch" is one of the traditional six branches of the modern Turkic peoples. The "Oguz branch" is a geographical and historical designation, yet not a separate ethnic term since the Turkic peoples of the world share the same ethnic roots.

They are referred to as "western Turks" because they moved west from other Turkic peoples after the Gokturk empire collapsed, and because the majority of the areas in which they inhabit today (except Turkmenistan and the Turkmen Sahra) are west of the Caspian Sea, while those reffered to as "eastern Turks" live east of the Caspian Sea.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica the name Turkmen is a synonym of Oguz which includes all the Turkish (Turkic) population who live to the southwest of Central Asia:

1. Turkey 2. Azerbaijan Republic 3. Azerbaijan of Iran 4. Turkmenistan 5. in other countries: a. Afghanistan b. Iraq, Syria and other Arab countries c. Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Gagavuz , Germany , Britan and many other European nations.

The Turkish historian Y. Oztuna presents almost the same definition to the name Turkmen. He calls Turkmen Oghuz or western Turkish populations:

1. Ottomans 2. Azerbaijan 3. Turkmen (Turkmenistan)

LITERATURE

Oguz Turkish literature includes the famous Book of Dede Korkut which was UNESCO's 2000 literacy work of the year, as well as the Oguznama and "Koroglu" epics which are part of the literacy history of Azerbaijanis, Turks of Turkey and Turkmens. The modern and classical literature of Azerbaijan, Turkey and central Asia are also considered the Oghuz literature, since it has been produced by their descendants.

The Book of Dede Korkut is an invaluable collection of epics and stories, bearing witness to the language, the way of life, religions, traditions and social norms of the Oguz Turks in Azerbaijan, Turkey and central Asia.


These are the realities my friend, why try and pretend it isn't the case. You have an agenda...

Your quotes regarding Qashqary are all incorrect with basic flaws such as there not even being Anatolian-Azeri Turkish accent in that era.



You haven't been in Iran. Iranians think Molla Nasreddin was an Iranian. It's their idea. You're stating also your idea. Give proofs.

Oh and you know everything about everything and everybody don't you, no wonder you have no credibility left.

I know Iran and Turkmenistan very well my friend, its better to actually KNOW what your talking about rather than make up FICTIONAL stories.

Nasreddin Hodja was a Turk, most Iranians realise this, if some Iranians believe he was Iranian their just decieving theirselves.



It's not my own theory. It's the way they believe in Central Asia. Seljuks were only a family of Sihun Oghuzes. There were also a group of Seljuks who were not Moslems.

This is basic history, the Turks didn't just convert over-night it was a gradual process.

And yes, these are ALL your theories.

Its accepted in Turkistan area of Central Asia and by majort historians and acedemic circles that Turkey-Azeri-Turkmen Turks are from the Southwestern Oguz Branch.

If you cannot accept this tough.

Yeah, exactly Turkmens have still got 9 tribes, just like the way they had all the time. Sihun Oghuz had 24 tribes which none of them was the same with 9 Oghuz.

Turkmen is not an "ethnic" term for the last time. Most of Turkmenistan is made up of the 24 tribes.

You try to deflect from this point by writting that its only the case in the South and West, however, you must realise that the high majority of Turkmenistan lives in this area and so are part of this branch.

Stop trying to even divide Turkmenistan you can never achieve it.

See, here, they've changed the sound system which is not because of distance. If so, how come Altai Turks still say 'qardash'? and not 'qerdash'? They live far from Turkey.

Why do Americans say, "Nah man" and in England they say "No", there regional differences and accents, just part and parcel of linguistics but the language is still "English" not Americanish.



There's no need to you the new member to say who I am. Lots of my friends have neglected you so far.

This is not your dad's house and also its merely a forum, it has no global influence and impact taking it so seriously is ridiculous.

In the real world we make a difference my friend, why is Turkmenistan so pro-Turk huh, why does it want to always improve relations and ties with Turkey, it want's to closen ties between what it sees as its ethnic brother Oguz Turks West of them. Why did the views of AGZIBIRLIK recieve such popular support and get adopted by Turkmenbashi huh?

These are the realities in the real world.


I also know you have gas problems in your cities; winter is a great problem. I know also only a few cities like Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir and Antaliya worth to visit (I mean no fair distribution of wealth).

They're not my cities, its not my country, you don't even know where I'm "originally" from



Who's the other Turkmen here?

Who knows    don't worry, your not alone here there are a few.



My friends' ideas about me won't change by a new comer. Think about yourself.

Your friends are on the internet, they're not in Turkmenistan, not influential in Turkemnistan and arn#t shaping the motion in which Turkmenistan is moving.

While others are my friend...

Turkmens have not much in common with Turkish or Azeri people.

Yes they have, no need to be in denial, as we've already stated Standard Turkmen if the Official Turkmen and there are many cultural similarities.      

We don't say 'I don't go' as in Turkish.

Nit-picking

Turkmen carpet is distinct from a Turkish carpet.

Its clear you have little knowledge about Carpets aswell and again instead of admitting this you act as if your an expert in this aswell.

Stop talking abou the same culture.

Its the realities and now that the Iron-curtains lifted the cultures are moving ever closer.

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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 10:44

You're staying off topic.

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 16:47

Gok Toruk can actually speak Persian, that gives him first hand access to a wealth of 800 y/o + information on Turks.  I would go by his word any day than a propagandist such as yourself Bulldog, I believe you have been to Iran as much as I believe you are half spanish and native british.

 
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 17:20
 I would go by his word
 
 I know you would, its in your interests to and would love it all to be true but we all know in the imaginary world of the internet anybody can be anyone they like and it doesn't reflect the realities, as the realities which we all know deep down are really quite different. If I started hating all Turks, writting that Azeri in Iran hate all Turks, don't
want anything to do with Turks and don't feel Turk you'd support me aswell. But I'd
just be lying and you'd be believing a lie. It doesn't matter what you do and don't believe, that's just subjective, there's only one way for you to really find out and that's to go and find out in the real world.
 
You don't need to know Persian to get along in IranWink its a matter of time untill another language get's added to the Official status.
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 11-Sep-2006 at 17:24
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 04:24

Thank you Zagros, for your support. After all, Bulldog saw I've got my own friends and found out that he didn't had to worry about my credit here. Instead of being off topic, bring facts that shows my numbers are lies.



Edited by gok_toruk - 12-Sep-2006 at 04:25
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 06:45
I think and belive that "Anatolian Turks, Azeris and Turkmens" are western branch of Oghuz as gok_toruk say Sihun Oghuzes. Also, I think the dokhuz oghuzes are one of the ancestors of Uygurs, if we would like to branch Oghuzes to two.
 
Turkmenistan is the birthplace of Great Seljuks and remember it is the source of Anatolian Turks and Azeris. The great and massive Oghuz migrations tto Turkey and Azerbeycan originated from Turkmenistan. Then how you can say Turks and Azeris are not same as Turkmen.
 
Also, the northen Turkmenistan tribes are not close to Turkmens. They are more close to Qazaqs and Mogols. Some can say Salars were originally mongol.
 
My two cents.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 10:52

The name 'Salar' is observed in Uighur texts which dates back to before 1000 A.D. They were one of the Oghuz tribes.

Salar's language and especially behavior can be easily distinguished from a a Qazaq; simply because he's a Turkmen.
 
And Turkmens are believed to be direct descendants of 9 Oghuz; not Sihun Oghuz. When the majority of 9 Oghuz left Mongolia to the destination Kazakstan, there were also Sihun Oghuzes there. That's why Iranian historians have stated there were two DISTINCT group of Oghuzes in Central Asia. Let's say, the most probable, they mixed with each other (not totally). But originally, they weren't the same, as all those documents say.
 
Uighurs were one of the 9 Oghuz tribes (in Chinese documents). And the fact is that, Turkmen is (especially the northern tribes) are almost the same as Uighur; not Anatolian Turkish.
 
Please, instead of stating your own idea (like Salars are Qazaq or Mongol), bring proofs.


Edited by gok_toruk - 12-Sep-2006 at 10:54
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