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Emperor Barbarossa
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Topic: What if the Jacobites had attacked London? Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 08:53 |
What would have happened if the Jacobites would have attacked London during the '45? Some historians speculate that London did not have an adequate defense force to defend the city. However, Bonnie Prince Charlie's top military advisors all advised against attacking the city. If the attack happened, would we see the Windsor House on the royal throne today, or would we see the old Scottish House of Stuart on the royal throne today?
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Paul
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Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 09:03 |
Taking and holding are two different things. Also most of the country would have mobilised the militias and armies would have formed. He would control London but nothing else. He would have had to hold London and send armies out the engage these. Would he have had the troops?
Edited by Paul - 02-Sep-2006 at 09:04
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gcle2003
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Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 09:49 |
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
What would have happened if the Jacobites would have attacked London during the '45? Some historians speculate that London did not have an adequate defense force to defend the city. However, Bonnie Prince Charlie's top military advisors all advised against attacking the city. If the attack happened, would we see the Windsor House on the royal throne today, or would we see the old Scottish House of Stuart on the royal throne today? |
The present Queen is descended from the Stuarts, as indeed was George I.
The answer would depend very much on what children the pretender had, other than the ones he had anyway. As it is the promiscuous Charles left no legitimate male child (and only an illegitimate female one) and his brother Henry was a bishop. The Stuart line died out in 1807 when Henry died, leaving (as far as I can track it) the succession going to .... George III (except he would have been George I).
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 20:05 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
What would have happened if the Jacobites would have attacked London during the '45? Some historians speculate that London did not have an adequate defense force to defend the city. However, Bonnie Prince Charlie's top military advisors all advised against attacking the city. If the attack happened, would we see the Windsor House on the royal throne today, or would we see the old Scottish House of Stuart on the royal throne today? |
The present Queen is descended from the Stuarts, as indeed was George I.
The answer would depend very much on what children the pretender had, other than the ones he had anyway. As it is the promiscuous Charles left no legitimate male child (and only an illegitimate female one) and his brother Henry was a bishop. The Stuart line died out in 1807 when Henry died, leaving (as far as I can track it) the succession going to .... George III (except he would have been George I). |
Well, I did not mean anything about the descent of the current monarchy(I believe it is more Scottish than English), but the House. What I meant was, would there be the House of Stuart today, instead of the House of Windsor due to a capture of London?
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Zagros
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Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 03:47 |
He was a Catholic and that was the reason why most of Scotland was also against him. He wanted to attack London, but some smart British counter intelligence bluff that a force of 6000 or so red coats stood in his way made that prospect seem like suicide to his men and generals who ultimately forced his withdrawal.
IMO If he had taken the royals in London and effectively held them for ransom in the seat of British power, there would have been a negotiated settlement. weighted heavily in his favour.
Edited by Zagros - 03-Sep-2006 at 03:48
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gcle2003
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Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 05:56 |
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
Well, I did not mean anything about the descent of the current monarchy(I believe it is more Scottish than English), but the House. What I meant was, would there be the House of Stuart today, instead of the House of Windsor due to a capture of London?
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My point is no, because the House of Stuart died out completely in 1807 with the death of Charles' brother Henry. The next in line to the British throne would still have been George of Hanover, even if Charles Stuart had become king, and been followed by his brother. So the following house would have been Hanover, and from then on the same as in real life.
If you want to consider anything to do with the House of Stuart after 1807, then you have to invent some more legitimate children for Charles (Henry being a Roman Catholic priest, and celibate).
Originally posted by Zagros
He was a Catholic and that was the reason why most of Scotland was also against him. |
Actually he converted to the Church of England, although only after the failure of the '45. In 1750 he accepted Anglican communion at the church of St Mary-le-Strand in London, in an attempt to boost his cause.
Reminiscent of Henri IV of France, only this time it would be 'Une messe ne vaut pas Londres'.
Charles' decision not to attack London is also reminiscent of Matilda's decision to avoid London even after she had taken Stephen prisoner. After all when Henry VI took Paris and had himself crowned there in 1431 it didn't do him much good in the end.
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 08:14 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
Well, I did not mean anything about the descent of the current monarchy(I believe it is more Scottish than English), but the House. What I meant was, would there be the House of Stuart today, instead of the House of Windsor due to a capture of London?
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My point is no, because the House of Stuart died out completely in 1807 with the death of Charles' brother Henry. The next in line to the British throne would still have been George of Hanover, even if Charles Stuart had become king, and been followed by his brother. So the following house would have been Hanover, and from then on the same as in real life.
If you want to consider anything to do with the House of Stuart after 1807, then you have to invent some more legitimate children for Charles (Henry being a Roman Catholic priest, and celibate). |
Okay, I see what you are saying. But, what I mean was, if he had won the war and become king, and hypothetically had a child, then would there be a Stuart Royal House today?
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gcle2003
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Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 09:17 |
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
Okay, I see what you are saying. But, what I mean was, if he had won the war and become king, and hypothetically had a child, then would there be a Stuart Royal House today?
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Who can tell? The House of Hanover has gone. All it takes is one generation with a female heir and, bingo! you have a different house.
(Or at least you did until they started tampering with the rules in the current reign. Charles, apparently, will be designated 'of Windsor' not 'of Mountbatten' which he should be. Queen Victoria will be spinning in her grave over it. )
A more interesting speculation it seems to me is what would have happened if at least one of Queen Anne's 17 children had survived to succeed her. They would have been, presumably, House of Denmark, since their father Georg (Jrgen) was the third son of Federick III of Denmark.
One of his older brothers died in infancy, so it's quite possible that one individual would at some point have succeeded to both the Danish and British crowns.
(Harald of Norway is still now something like 50th in line of succession to the British crown.)
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 13:27 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
Okay, I see what you are saying. But, what I mean was, if he had won the war and become king, and hypothetically had a child, then would there be a Stuart Royal House today?
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Who can tell? The House of Hanover has gone. All it takes is one generation with a female heir and, bingo! you have a different house.
(Or at least you did until they started tampering with the rules in the current reign. Charles, apparently, will be designated 'of Windsor' not 'of Mountbatten' which he should be. Queen Victoria will be spinning in her grave over it. ) |
I thought the "House of Windsor" was just the renamed "House of Hanover" because during World War II, they did not want their Royal House to sound German.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 05:43 |
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
Okay, I see what you are saying. But, what I mean was, if he had won the war and become king, and hypothetically had a child, then would there be a Stuart Royal House today?
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Who can tell? The House of Hanover has gone. All it takes is one generation with a female heir and, bingo! you have a different house.
(Or at least you did until they started tampering with the rules in the current reign. Charles, apparently, will be designated 'of Windsor' not 'of Mountbatten' which he should be. Queen Victoria will be spinning in her grave over it. )
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I thought the "House of Windsor" was just the renamed "House of Hanover" because during World War II, they did not want their Royal House to sound German.
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The last monarch of the House of Hanover was Queen Victoria. She married Albert of Saxe-Coburg, so Edward VII was the first king of the house of Saxe-Coburg.
You are correct insofar as George V changed the name to Windsor in WW1 to avoid the German connotations, but the change was from Saxe-Coburg not from Hanover.
(Incidentally at the same time for the same reason Prince Louis of Battenberg changed his family name to Mountbatten.)
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gcle2003
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Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 07:12 |
Just to round off the picture, this is how the British royal houses have changed since the Conquest.
Norman: William I, conquered the place Plantagenet (Angevin): Henry II, inherited from his mother, who married the Count of Anjou Lancaster: Henry IV, took the throne from Richard II via rebellion, and used the family name of his father, John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster York: Edward IV, also took the throne via rebellion against Henry VI, and took the family name from his father, the Duke of York. Tudor: Henry VII, another rebellion this time against Richard III. Henry's claim was through his mother, who was married to Edmund Tudor. Stuart: James I & VI, inheriting via his mother Mary of Scots back up to his great-grandmother, Henry VIII's sister, who married James IV (Stuart) of Scotland. His father was another Stuart.) Hanover: George I, whose claim was through his grandmother, daughter of James I. Saxe-Coburg: Edward VII, whose mother was Queen Victoria, who married Albert of Saxe-Coburg. Windsor: Name adopted by George V (of Saxe-Coburg) during WWI.
As you can see, houses change either when the throne is taken by force, or when succession is through the female line. Or, as with Henry Tudor, both.
Edited by gcle2003 - 04-Sep-2006 at 07:14
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Paul
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Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 07:23 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Who can tell? The House of Hanover has gone. All it takes is one generation with a female heir and, bingo! you have a different house. |
Except this generation........ We have no queen Elizabeth of the house of Philippos Andreou Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg.
I suddenly feel a yearning for a kebab coming on...........
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gcle2003
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Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 09:07 |
Traditionally, Elizabeth would always be a Windsor, just as Victoria remained house of Hanover. It's thechildren that should start the new house in their father's family name.
Which would in fact be Mountbatten, since that is the (adopted) family name of her husband. It has absolutely nothing to do with who Philip's ancestors were.
Otherwise, as I pointed out before, every monarch since William would be House of Normandy.
It's dead simple really. The name of the house is simply the family surname, which follows the normal English rules for family names. Legitimate children are named after their father. (Illegitimate children don't succeed, unless they are conquerors )
The only difference is that a woman marrying changes her surname, whereas a Queen keeps her house. So Mary I was Tudor, not a Habsburg, though her chidren would have been Habsburg if she had any. Mary II was Stuart not Orange, though her children would have been Orange. Anne was also Stuart, though her children would have been whatever the family name of the contemporary Danish house was.
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 12:45 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
Okay, I see what you are saying. But, what I mean was, if he had won the war and become king, and hypothetically had a child, then would there be a Stuart Royal House today?
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Who can tell? The House of Hanover has gone. All it takes is one generation with a female heir and, bingo! you have a different house.
(Or at least you did until they started tampering with the rules in the current reign. Charles, apparently, will be designated 'of Windsor' not 'of Mountbatten' which he should be. Queen Victoria will be spinning in her grave over it. )
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I thought the "House of Windsor" was just the renamed "House of Hanover" because during World War II, they did not want their Royal House to sound German.
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The last monarch of the House of Hanover was Queen Victoria. She married Albert of Saxe-Coburg, so Edward VII was the first king of the house of Saxe-Coburg.
You are correct insofar as George V changed the name to Windsor in WW1 to avoid the German connotations, but the change was from Saxe-Coburg not from Hanover.
(Incidentally at the same time for the same reason Prince Louis of Battenberg changed his family name to Mountbatten.) |
Okay, I must have mixed that up then.
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Dampier
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Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 13:27 |
I think while London would definately have been captured (though there may have been a repeat of the ECW Battle of Turnham Green with militias showing them off) holding would have been impossible. I'd predict a benefical treaty for Bonnie followed within a decade by an English military resurgence leading to something like Culloden but more southern.
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