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The Charioteer View Drop Down
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: chinese
    Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 16:44

I think Chen Tang was referring to Western Han dynasty when he said one Chinese soldier can handle five non-Chinese soldiers, but during his time, he said because the non-Chinese states have learnt technologies from China, thus improved their fighting quality, but one Chinese soldier can still handle three non-Chinese soldiers.

Chao Cuo's evaluation was limited more or less to the era of emperor Jingdi, i think during successive Wudi's era, this evaluation may not be correct, since the campaigns which greatly weakened the Xiongnu were largely achieved by Han-cavalry which relied much on improvement of Mobility.
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 02:40
Was due to superior iron swords and armour of Han armies, and they can now match the mobility of the Xiongnu.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 15:25

Mobility is essential factor in winning steppe warfare. Wudi tried first to ambush the Xiongnu by luring them to border-town Mayi, but sense its a trap, Xiongnu horsemen simply run away. If one cant even catch up with the enemy, how could one actually fight them?

Failure at Mayi prevented Han to use any similar method again, they have to take the fight to the heartland of Xiongnu, the steppe, and cavalry proved to be decisive.
 
As demonstrated by campaigns carried out by General Huo qubing, he always took the fight to Xiongnu settlement area by surprise, to maximumize the effectiveness of mobility he had preferably relied on light cavalry, whether to attack by surprise or chasing the defeated enemy, without cavalry warfare its not possible to achieve those victories, and to defeat nomdic armies on the steppe. The ability to adopt and master Mobility by the Han during Wudi's several Xiongnu campaigns prevented the Xiongnu factions to react promptly, also prevented them to gather quickly again by chasing defeated Xiongnu with light cavalry.
 
Previously, its Xiongnu who decide when to fight, often they would gather up an army without any warning, and attack Chinese border towns which often had less troops than what Xiongnu gathered. When they learnt in Mayi there is a well-prepared Chinese army waiting for them for a fight, Xiongnu simply retreated to vastness of steppes.
 
Its when one can attack their bases which is most deadly action the nomads fear. One of the reason Chingizkhan had to pacify tribes to his north before launch his massive invasion of Jin dynasty. Since he took majority of his men out, with only few thousand left to guard the base, any possible attack by those northern tribes would prove to be a blow to Mongol strength. It seemed Han army durng Wudi's reign realised this potential weakness of their steppe enemy, and they exploited it well, contributing significant setback for the Xiongnu force at the time.


Edited by The Charioteer - 09-Apr-2007 at 21:49
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 16:17
Throughout the span of Chinese history and interactions with neighboring and foreign powers, Chinese population numbers in general dwarfed that of others around them, and therefore were able to raise larger armies in general. However, when one considers the terrain size of China proper, even a force of one million soldiers could be stretched quite thin, reserved mostly in the garrison forts of the northern borders or in the riverine naval forces placed farther in the south below the northern plain of the Yellow River region. Chinese armies throughout successive dynasties were heavily drilled and trained to follow strict adherence to battle formations, lining up in different formations by implementing numbers of drum beats or using flags, banners, kites, etc. as key symbols for movement of armed forces.
 
In every scenario where tribal nomads of the north swept over China and claimed a Chinese-style dynastic authority, it seems that this always happened in times where already prevalent disunity of central authority and inner rebellion within the '9 Provinces' of Zhongguo were in motion. For example, when the Western Jin Dynasty following the Three Kingdoms was crumbling due to inner rebellion and factional discontent by the early 4th century, the Wu Hu tribesmen from the north swept over a northern section of China and claimed authority for a period of time during the Sixteen Kingdoms. When the later Song Dynasty, often using the policy of appeasement to keep the Xi-Xia and Liao at bay, was battling their Khitan rivals of the Liao Dynasty in Manchuria in the 12th century, they aided the Jurchen tribes as allies. The Jurchens turned against them after conquering Liao, and snatched the entire northern half of China. In this weakened state, Southern Song China aided the Mongols in the mid-to-late 13th century to expel the Jurchen authority of the Jin Dynasty to the north, and afterwards the emboldened Mongols took Jin and the Southern Song, conquering all of China by 1279. When the later Ming Dynasty was crumbling in the mid 17th century due to fiscal and economic breakdown as well as agrarian rebellions sparked by figures such as Li Zicheng, the Manchus to the north had previously been beaten back before, but now were emboldened by the proposal of Wu Sangui, and invaded northern China while it was in chaos. Although the Manchu Banners were strong, they weren't able to conquer all of China until the 1680s, whereupon a third of the entire Chinese population was killed or died off from the late 16th century until the late 17th century.
 
Thus, it seems that in times of division, civil war, civil upheaval, and great peril occuring within the domains of "China" in antiquity or the medieval period, northern nomadic groups often found their chance to strike when the timing was most favorable, when Chinese armies were unable to be coordinated properly by a central authority, and were therefore depleted due to desertion because of loss of paid salaries to the troops and breakdown of civil order. If there was any group who banked on the latter, it was the Manchus who used effective propoganda in the written language of Manchurian, Han Chinese, and Mongolian to persuade all factions to join their side as they invaded northern China from their base in Manchuria during the 1640s.
 
Eric
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 02:28
The chinese can hardly be outnumbered !
PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 06:43
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

The chinese can hardly be outnumbered !
 
Thats what I think 2
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 11:16

An example is the conquest of Kharazm by the Mongols. No doubt Chingizkhan was a brilliant leader, still, the Kharazmian had a fatal defensive measure which doomed them to destruction. They are said to have 300k standing army, but when the Mongols came the Kharazmian forces were scatterred to defend every Kharazmian cities. Elder Prince Jalandin actually suggested that Kharazm should gather up its force, since Mongols are coming far from the steppe, before they could get a rest from their long journey, use Kharazmian army's superior numbers to make a decisive fight.

But instead his suggestion was rejected by the Kharazmian Sha. This means Mongols could take out the Kharazmian cities one by one without the risk of confronting with a superior enemy force in numbers. Chingizkhan marssacred the defenders whoever had inflict heavy casuaties on his men was due to the fact the Mongols were less in numbers. Jalandin's judgement was right,its probably better than sitting there and waiting for the Mongols taking their cities out one by one.A similar strategy was also executed by the Jurchens at the battle of Yehuling, but due to unable generals they didnt co-ordinate well, and its disaster for the Jin.

The reason that Jalan din was rejected was due to court fight among the Kharazmians. The Queen mother to the Sha was of Qincha descend, many of the Kharazmian lords are also from Qincha, they didnt want to Jalandin, whos mother is of Turkic descend to be the heir, which could threatening Qincha nobilities power in Kharazm. Accepting Jalandin's suggestion would also mean granting him the authority to command entire Kharazmian military, and if hes victorious against the Mongols, he would definitely be ascended to the Kharazmian throne which Qincha nobles wouldnt like to see. So internal rivalries and treachery among Kharazmians contributed somewhat to their destruction.

Not surprisingly, the first serious nomadic invasion in Chinese history, when the Western Zhou capital was sacked by "barbarian" which ended the Western Zhou was also partly due to Zhou treacherous officials collaborating with the "barbarian" invaders. As was with the Southern Song, if the founder of Southern Song was not worried about any possible return of captured Northern Song monarchs by the Jurchens(perhaps like that of Ming emperor who was captured by the Mongols but eventually returned), he probably wouldnt had gave up central China so easily, no wonder LiQingZhao wrote  the famous literature to condemn the government's retreart to the South.

But if the central government is strong enough, even Xiongnu under Muodu which then was at its height could not conquer China.

Its interesting to think, that Muodu had the Chinese emperor Liubang and Chinese main force encircled, but rather than destroying them and enter China to establish his own regime like later the Wuhu("five barbarians") did, Muodu let them go.



Edited by The Charioteer - 13-Sep-2006 at 11:18
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