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Bosnians are Illyrian?

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Mila View Drop Down
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Bosnians are Illyrian?
    Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:58
I don't believe it, and it almost a joke among most Bosniaks - but there are those who believe in this theory.

I was discussing it with a friend from Serbia, Milan. And he was joking saying: You look just like Albanians, I can never tell Bosniaks and Albanians apart - the resemblence is so strange.

And I responded - NO! You're not one of those who thinks we are Illyrians, and I'm sure the Croats are really Iranian too! And he responded he doesn't think we're Illyrians, but Serbs - teasing me - hahaha.

Anyhow, we talked more about the Bosnian Church and medieval history, he knows quite a bit also. And he said the name of our first, independent leader:

Kulin

Is actually an Illyrian tribe name. I don't know if it's true, but who knows.

We also noted that medieval Bosnian rulers always referred to themselves as Bosnjani or Dobri Bosnjani (Bosnians, or Good Bosnians), but never once referred to their language as Bosnian. The language was always called Serbian or Croatian, and in most cases the same rulers referenced the language as both at different times, depending on who they were writing to.

Could that be because they didn't consider the language their own, since it was Slavic, and they were...not?

[Milan protested: But I'm not sure the bosnian rulers didn't call their language bosnian? I know for sure that the bosnian church adherents and franjevci called their langauge bosnian!]

Also, Bosna comes from Bosona - which I believe is an old Illyrian word meaning water.

I'll never believe Bosnians are Illyrians, so I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here. But I wonder... when Slavs arrived in Bosnia, and remember Bosnia was the place settled first - roughly a century before Slavs settled what is now Croatia and Serbia. When they settled Bosnia, maybe we have not taken into account which culture/race - Illyrian/Slavic - truly became dominant and when?

I would be willing to believe Bosnians adopted a lot of the Illyrian culture and mixed with them, with Slavic language and Illyrian ideas of identity being dominant for the first several centuries - but that's as far I'd go.

What do you all think about such things?


Edited by Mila - 06-Jul-2006 at 12:25
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 12:21
By the way, if anyone comes across the genetic testing that shows that Bosniaks (as well as Croats and Serbs) are largely indigenous to the Balkan peninsula, with a lot of their genetic make-up being native to the Balkan area - this is misrepresented.

This information is correct, but it refers to today's genetic make-up of the Balkan peninsula, which is obviously largely Slavic.

Albanians and Greeks, who obviously have been on the Balkan peninsula much longer, typical show few or absolutely none of these "indigenous Balkan genes". So remember that this genetic testing is nothing when it comes to this discussion.
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 21:08

Well, the illyrians didnt just dissapear. I believe they affected the culture of the southernslaves, and the bosnian as well, the same as the thracian affected the culture of the bulgarians. But still, it remains mainly slavic. There might be found few cultural similarities between some bosnians and some albanians, but I believe that this is due to the ottoman empire, and to the fact that this people were islamized massively.

Appart of that every nation in the balkans shares many similarities with others, even albanians and serbs have many things in common culturally talking. (both of them offend eachother in the same wayLOLLOLkidding).
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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 05:20
Well, the name Bosna is probably derived from the name of Illyrian (?) tribe Besoi.I believe that Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats do have some significant Illyrian ancestry.I mean, if u just take a walk through the streets of Belgrade, Sarajevo or Zagreb, it becomes clear that we're nothing like the Russians or Poles (where ''slavic genes'' are strong).
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 10:25
I agree, but I think that's more likely Turkish and Ottoman genetic influences - or Greek, in Serbia's case, if it makes you feel better. :D
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 11:39
Originally posted by Mila

I agree, but I think that's more likely Turkish and Ottoman genetic influences - or Greek, in Serbia's case, if it makes you feel better. :D
 
regarding the question -Are the Bosnians Illyrians?-I would answer no.
But certainly the Illyrians contributed to the Bosnian ethnogenesis, together with the different slavic, celtic, various roman, german, albanian, turkish etc.But their culture is mostly slavic (southern), affected strongly by the ottoman turkish.
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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 05:50
Originally posted by Mila

I agree, but I think that's more likely Turkish and Ottoman genetic influences - or Greek, in Serbia's case, if it makes you feel better. :D
 
Turkish ''influences'' are very weak on Balcans. You're forgeting the Romans - a significant number of Illyrians was ''romanized''. This is one of the reasons why a no. of us Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks is tanned( I presume that's what u mean by ''turkish'')...
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 09:45
Originally posted by Socrates

Originally posted by Mila

I agree, but I think that's more likely Turkish and Ottoman genetic influences - or Greek, in Serbia's case, if it makes you feel better. :D
 
Turkish ''influences'' are very weak on Balcans. You're forgeting the Romans - a significant number of Illyrians was ''romanized''. This is one of the reasons why a no. of us Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks is tanned( I presume that's what u mean by ''turkish'')...
 
Well if we analyse their culture, theire not Illyrian but slavic, and they do have a strong othoman influence.
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  Quote Herschel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 16:32
Originally posted by Mila

I agree, but I think that's more likely Turkish and Ottoman genetic influences - or Greek, in Serbia's case, if it makes you feel better. :D


Turkish genetic influences in the Balkans are incredibly minute. Like the rest of Europe, most of the genetic stock was finallized by the end of the Neolithic era, with only minor contributions along the way. There is hardly any Greek influence in Serbia, too.
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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 12:50
Illyrians might have mixed extensively with the invading Slavic tribes of the 6th and 7th century. I think based on the fact that today Bosnians speak Slavic and not an Illyrian based language like Albanian shows that Illyrians didn't influence Bosnians it was rather the other way around since native Illyrians were absorbed into the Slavic population.

Edited by vulkan02 - 21-Aug-2006 at 12:51
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  Quote Herschel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 21:07
Culturally you are right, but I was just speaking in Genetic terms. France speaks a Latin language today but they are not of Italian stock. Mila says she is not an Illyrian -- and she's not, but genetically she is very close to her llyrian ancestors and shares very little with the Slavic invaders. 
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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 10:06
Herschel I did some research on the genetic investigations and there's one study i found: It seems as the EU7-I1b is designated to be the "Illyric gene".

Pogledaj donji dio Albanian (Kosovar) 114 (Pritina, kosovski miks)
21.1% (R1b-M173)
4.4% (R1a-M17)
2.7% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
45.6% (E3b1-M7
16.7 (J2e-M102)

Albanian (Albanian) 51 (za usporedbu iz ranijih radova)
17.6% (R1b-M173)
9.8% (R1a-M17)
17.0% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
27.0% (E3b1-M7
14.3% (J2e-M102)

Croatian (mainland) 108 uzoraka (opet Pazin, Delnice, Zabok, Osijek, ali i Donji Miholjac te zaudo Dubrovnik )
15.7% (R1b-M173)
34.3% (R1a-M17)
32.4 (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
5.6% (E3b1-M7
1.0% (J2e-M102)


Bosnian 69 (naokolo Zenice)
1.4% (R1b-M173)
24.6% (R1a-M17)
52.2% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
10.1% (E3b1-M7
0% (J2e-M102)

Herzegovinian 141 (iroki Brig i naokolo oba Mostara)
3.6% (R1b-M173)
12.1% (R1a-M17)
63.8% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
8.5% (E3b1-M7
0.7% (J2e-M102)

Serbian 113 (Beograd, dakle nekakav srbijanski miks)
10.6% (R1b-M173)
15.9% (R1a-M17)
29.2% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
20.4% (E3b1-M7
5.3% (J2e-M102)

Macedonian 79 (Skoplje, makedonski miks)
5.1% (R1b-M173)
15.2% (R1a-M17)
29.1% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
24.1% (E3b1-M7
6.3% (J2e-M102)

However before you jump into conclusions notice that first this study was done by Bosnian researchers(?) so a little nationalist pride could have been the factor to alter facts. Another thing that strikes me is how could they know that the Eu7 is in fact an Illyrian gene when we don't know what the Illyrian dominant haplotype is in the first place??

According to this published article that doesn't seem to be the case: (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf#search=%22EU7%20gene%22) the Eu7 gene is not  prevalent only in Bosnia but in ...Germany too and suprise suprise... in the original Samii peoples of northern Scandinavia which show 41.7% EU-7 only 3% lower than the Croatians which are at 44.8%! Eu-18 is also the predominant type among Irish, Germans and Spaniars but do Irish look the same as a typical dark skinned Spaniard? Of course not.
By the way different tests yielded different results. In a test Croats showed the Eu-7 as dominant gene but in a different one they showed the EU-19 which is the Dominant gene in Russia, Ukraine, Poland, and pretty much a typical Slavic country.
It seems that to prove or to disprove anything about Bosnians and Croatinas using genetics is at best very confusing and not reliable.





Edited by vulkan02 - 22-Aug-2006 at 10:14
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 05:11
Originally posted by Mila


I would be willing to believe Bosnians adopted a lot of the Illyrian culture and mixed with them, with Slavic language and Illyrian ideas of identity being dominant for the first several centuries - but that's as far I'd go.

Thats what I was going to say, and it appears may others have too. I think this is highly likely.
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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 19:31
Originally posted by vulkan02

Herschel I did some research on the genetic investigations and there's one study i found: It seems as the EU7-I1b is designated to be the "Illyric gene".

Pogledaj donji dio Albanian (Kosovar) 114 (Pritina, kosovski miks)
21.1% (R1b-M173)
4.4% (R1a-M17)
2.7% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
45.6% (E3b1-M7
16.7 (J2e-M102)

Albanian (Albanian) 51 (za usporedbu iz ranijih radova)
17.6% (R1b-M173)
9.8% (R1a-M17)
17.0% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
27.0% (E3b1-M7
14.3% (J2e-M102)

Croatian (mainland) 108 uzoraka (opet Pazin, Delnice, Zabok, Osijek, ali i Donji Miholjac te zaudo Dubrovnik )
15.7% (R1b-M173)
34.3% (R1a-M17)
32.4 (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
5.6% (E3b1-M7
1.0% (J2e-M102)


Bosnian 69 (naokolo Zenice)
1.4% (R1b-M173)
24.6% (R1a-M17)
52.2% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
10.1% (E3b1-M7
0% (J2e-M102)

Herzegovinian 141 (iroki Brig i naokolo oba Mostara)
3.6% (R1b-M173)
12.1% (R1a-M17)
63.8% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
8.5% (E3b1-M7
0.7% (J2e-M102)

Serbian 113 (Beograd, dakle nekakav srbijanski miks)
10.6% (R1b-M173)
15.9% (R1a-M17)
29.2% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
20.4% (E3b1-M7
5.3% (J2e-M102)

Macedonian 79 (Skoplje, makedonski miks)
5.1% (R1b-M173)
15.2% (R1a-M17)
29.1% (I1b*(xM26)-P37)
24.1% (E3b1-M7
6.3% (J2e-M102)

However before you jump into conclusions notice that first this study was done by Bosnian researchers(?) so a little nationalist pride could have been the factor to alter facts. Another thing that strikes me is how could they know that the Eu7 is in fact an Illyrian gene when we don't know what the Illyrian dominant haplotype is in the first place??

According to this published article that doesn't seem to be the case: (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf#search=%22EU7%20gene%22) the Eu7 gene is not  prevalent only in Bosnia but in ...Germany too and suprise suprise... in the original Samii peoples of northern Scandinavia which show 41.7% EU-7 only 3% lower than the Croatians which are at 44.8%! Eu-18 is also the predominant type among Irish, Germans and Spaniars but do Irish look the same as a typical dark skinned Spaniard? Of course not.
By the way different tests yielded different results. In a test Croats showed the Eu-7 as dominant gene but in a different one they showed the EU-19 which is the Dominant gene in Russia, Ukraine, Poland, and pretty much a typical Slavic country.
It seems that to prove or to disprove anything about Bosnians and Croatinas using genetics is at best very confusing and not reliable.



 
Where did you find this research?I don't think it's reliable.It seems to be somesort of Croatian propaganda.Here's something one might call reliable science:
 
 
 
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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 16:32
Its a publication from Standford University, im not talking of the Bosnian research, the link is at the first sentence of my second paragragh.
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Edited by vulkan02 - 02-Sep-2006 at 16:33
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 14:21
The link is OK.
Bosnians are Illyrians.

here the correct linkhttp://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA.RootsiHaplogroupISpread.pdf

here the important things:







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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2011 at 07:44
Oh God what a load of BS...
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2011 at 13:54
Level of contamination is very high.According to DNA,66% belong to same haplogroup,similar with 34% in
FYROM,also similar with other Balkans countries.I forgot similar with 21% of population in Egypt!Big smile
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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2011 at 09:08
I thought this was a history forum...
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2011 at 11:06
that's the point above:history remake was made on written documents that are not supported by DNA facts
In other words,those people are with stolen history and identity!Why&Who did it?"Bozji Ljudi"(Deity people) they are but...
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