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Did Roman's possess a sense of color bias?

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Akolouthos View Drop Down
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did Roman's possess a sense of color bias?
    Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 04:02
I was thinking of St. Moses the Black--one of the most respected of the Desert Fathers--the other day, and a question occurred to me: Did the Romans, as a general rule, hold racist views toward people based on the color of their skin?
 
I am sorry for posting such a narrow topic here, but this question has really been nagging me, and I am completely unable to arrive at a conclusion, regarding this matter, on my own.
 
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 04:29
I believe Roman prejudice was principally confined to a person's cultural attributes, not racial attributes. For instance, they held Celts and Germans in very low regard, despite the fact they were quite fair-skinned.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 12:48
They actually made fun of the Celts and Germans skin color, as mentioned elsewhere. A joke in the legions was that you should never fight the barbarians with the sun in your backs, the shine from their eyes would blind you.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 13:09
Originally posted by Sparten

They actually made fun of the Celts and Germans skin color, as mentioned elsewhere. A joke in the legions was that you should never fight the barbarians with the sun in your backs, the shine from their eyes would blind you.


True, but they didn't ascribe their "barbarism" to the colour of their skin, but to their culture. To the Roman mind everyone was capable of being Romanized and becoming a Roman. Many respected Romans were actually of Gallic stock; probably Tacitus, for instance. Claudius I - himself a native of Lugdunum - admitted Gauls to the Senate in 48. So, the concept of racial inferiority doesn't really seem to have been present, it was more a notion of cultural inferiority.
    
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 13:28
I believe the ROmans were prejudiced against everyone who was not a Roman. So to regenerate the old racist defence, "I'm not a racist, I hate everyone!"
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 14:24
Still they did have African Emperors, as well as an Arab. So Romanisation was way more important. In a way its a good thing, substance over form.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 16:12
Originally posted by Paul

I believe the ROmans were prejudiced against everyone who was not a Roman. So to regenerate the old racist defence, "I'm not a racist, I hate everyone!"


True, but anyone, regardless of their race, could be a Roman. So it can't really be called a racist ideology, if you think about what racism means. Romans didn't think people were inferior by virtue of birth, but by virtue of circumstance and the fact that they hadn't accepted Roman culture - if they just did that, they could join the "superior" culture. Prejudice can come in many forms, it doesn't have to be based on race.
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  Quote Gloval Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 18:48
Racism is a fairly new concept. Romans didn't have it because ancient cultures in the mediterranean were similar in technology and traded with each other a lot. That and the climate produced a similar sort of attitudes about architecture and social life.

Racism developed when the europeans centuries ago encountered "savages" who were always darker in complexion than they were and were easy to control. Some scholars decided that naturally whiter skin tones meant that you were superior to all others since at the time europe controlled almost everything. I wish this ideology would disappear permanently never to resurface, hasn't anybody read guns germs and steel?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 21:19
Whos to say the Romans werent racist??? In todays world discrimination against someone of colour of any form = racism.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by machine - 03-Jul-2006 at 21:22
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 21:27

True, but they didn't ascribe their "barbarism" to the colour of their skin, but to their culture. To the Roman mind everyone was capable of being Romanized and becoming a Roman. Many respected Romans were actually of Gallic stock; probably Tacitus, for instance. Claudius I - himself a native of Lugdunum - admitted Gauls to the Senate in 48. So, the concept of racial inferiority doesn't really seem to have been present, it was more a notion of cultural inferiority. 
 
Sounds more like ethnic/cultural discrimination rather than racial discrimination.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 21:32
Originally posted by machine

Whos to say the Romans werent racist??? In todays world discrimination against someone of colour of any form= racism.


Then the Romans weren't racist. Prejudiced, but not racist. They didn't discriminate against people because of their colour, they discriminated between people who wore togas and hung out at the baths, and people who didn't. You could be any colour; if you lived the Roman lifestyle then you were good, if you lived the Germanic or Parthian or Egyptian lifestyle, you were inferior.

Such a concept is equally dangerous and ugly as racism, people just don't like to think about it that way since so many of us engage in it (Western lifestyle vs non-Western lifestyle). It's supremacism any way you cut it, whether it's white supremacism or Western supremacism.
    
Originally posted by machine

Sounds more like ethnic/cultural discrimination ratherthan racial discrimination.

    
Yep, exactly. Religious, ethnic, cultural, political discrimination.

Edited by edgewaters - 03-Jul-2006 at 21:33
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 21:37
The Romans did believe their culture to be superior, yet with regard to Greek they wavered between admiration and dismissive arrogance. Your customs and social position distinguished you as a Roman, as well as your ability to speak Latin.
 
Incidentally, the Romans considered paleness in men to be a sign of effeminacy. Again not so much racism as fashion.
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  Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 02:57
Well, I see little difference between ethnocentrism and racism. I know, I know, I've had debated about this numerous times in the past.
 
Based on my experience, it is not uncommon for a member of a "different race" to be accepted if they exhibit some familiar cultural traits to those who would normally be biased.
 
Usually cultural traits are the only distinguishing factors between the two individuals and then "race" will come into question.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 03:29
The Romans and the Greeks before them had a grudging respect for the Persians as well.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 19:26

You can't judge the Romans on Racism- their Psycology and ideals are just so different and long ago.

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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 00:07
I think you forget that what Romans were saying were not exactly their true opinions but a formal integration in the propaganda machine.


The racism existed in antiquity. In the most important book of Christian monasticism, the Paterikon or Apoftegmata Patrorum, presenting words and life facts of the Fathers (Monks with a holy life) of Egypt, there is one of these monks, considered among the few most important: Abba Moses the Etiopian. He lived in 4th or begining of 5th century and he was black, in contrast with most of the monks from Egypt who were Copts, Greeks or Romans. In one of Abba Moses words, he is bespattering himself with such words: "Oh, you, the blacked, what are you looking for among the true men?" I think such manifestations illsutrate the racial prejudices in that time.


But also I want say that there are two kinds of racism: it's a negative racism, the belief that some races are superior others, and the positive racism, to want to protect a territory where there is a culture of an ethnic group, against the possible changings in ethnic compossition of that territory.

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  Quote Irish Nation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2006 at 19:56
They looked down on people who they saw as inferior. In other words they every non Roman. They did not have a sense of colour Bias. At least i dont think so. It was how sophisticated the people were. Someone mentioned up above they held the celts in low regard. And Germans. They were fair skinned. But they could not macth Roman Civalisation. So the Romans saw them as inferior. This was there Bias.It went to many other Nations.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2006 at 20:09
From the works of ancient writters one can assume that they had some people in contempt, like for example Germanic tribes.
But it wasnt really a racism. It was similar division like this that Greeks had, division on Romans and Greeks and the rest of people - barbarians.
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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2006 at 20:23
Right. The Romans were very cultural-centric, but did not seem to be racist in the manner of skin color (at least I can't think of an example in Roman literature or other accounts).




Edited by Imperator Invictus - 24-Jul-2006 at 20:23
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2006 at 23:25
I beleive they even had high ranking official who were partly or even wholly of "negroid" origin who were completely Roman.
 
 
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