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Shatuo Tujues origin
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    Posted: 06-May-2006 at 18:45
In Chinese history, there is the "Shatuo Tujue" who ruled China for  about  one quarter century, after the collapse of Tang dynasty, during the three dynasties of Five Dynasty-Ten State period.

Where does this tribe originate and what ethnic relationships they have with other groups of Turk people in Central Asia, including the Uighurs and the  Kazakhs?

The Chinese pronunciation of the group is currently "Shatuo Tujue" and that is explained to mean the "Turks in Sandhills or sand dunes" (Records of Five Dynasty). Thus, I think we may take the "Shatuo Tujue"as "Shatege Turker or Kumluk Tege Turk", but I am not sure.

Any ideas?
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Posts: 451 		  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2006 at 20:15
They were one of the groups that emerged when the Xianbei split up.
rgds.

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Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 23:22

 

They have nothing to do with Shiwei. They were part of Western Turkic tribes, from chuye (kuye?) tribe. They Built three kingdoms Posterier Tang, Jin and Han, after Tang was usurped.

They were the main ally of Tang compaign. The region beyong Hexi were actually conqured by them, and ruled by them. They helped Tang to quell many rebellions. In Uyghur writings they were called Sir-Tardush (if I'm not wrong).  

  
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Posts: 61 		  Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2006 at 15:08

Very interseting. In addition to those three dynasties, they also built the "(Northern) Han (Bei Han)", one of the 10 States during the Five Dynasty period.

It covered Shan Xi (West of Mountain) province and parts of Shaan Xi (West of Shaan) and He Bei (North of Yellow River) provinces.
 
Their rule lasted for a significant period of time for sevaral generations of the Emperors (kings), reginally or in total, 170 years since they entered the Central Kingdom, as a vassal area of Tang. 
 
By the way, Barber, I would appreciate if you can reconfirm and let me know the sources that they were called "Sir-Tardush" in Uighur script.
 
Does this "Sir-Tardush" match the Chinese interpretation of "Sha Tuo (meaning Sand-Dune or Sand-Hills)", as so explained in "New History of the Five Dynasties"?
 
If so, or otherwise, what is the meaning of "Sir-Tardush"?
 
I interpreted that part of the records as meaning "Sha (sand)-Tegi (mounts or hills)" in Turkic language. However, I wondered whether my interpretation would be correct because in my interpretation, "Sha-" is not a Turkic word, but a Chinese word.
 
The reason I associate Shatuo people with the Uighurs or other closely-inhabiting Turkic group (say, Kazakhs) is that they lived in "Bogdataghlar (Bogda Mountains)" located in Uighur current and then region. 
 
What's your opinion?  


Edited by Dayanhan - 17-May-2006 at 15:13
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Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 11:59
 
I think Sir-tardush does match the Chinese Shatuo. You know there was Xueyantuo before the apprearance of Shatuo. Xueyantuo is simply the Chinese pronounciation of Sir-tardush.  Later explanation with the literal writing (Sha-sand, tuo-hill) is pretty questionable. As It's not common for Turkic tribes to have tribal names according to geographical location, and also a big group like this couldn't just be restricted to this type of region.
 
As for the actual meaning, Sir I think should be related to Sari (yellow), which might mean east.  Just like sari-uyghur.  This is common in Turkish to use colour to define direction ( came from a traditional using of different coloured flags to the different troops in different directions). Like Qara means west (or great)  like Qaraxanids, Qara balasaghun.
 
Tardush maybe related to Tardu Qaghan of Turgesh. Maybe they were the tribes who thought him as ancestral leader. We know Turgesh had splitted into two parts, Qara and Sari. (which again shows the relation.)
 
So Sir-Tardush might mean east Tardush. This is just my humble opinion. I need to check the books to be more sure, or someone else could enlighten more.
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 132 		  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 22:03
Rene Grousset in his "Empire of the Steppes" writes about the Shato Turks, and how they ruled China. Descendants of the Shato Turks are Ongut Turks - allies and "quda" (relatives through marriage) of Genghis Khan, and their descendants are Waq (or Uak) tribe of  Kazakhs of Middle Horde (Orta Juz) (see www.elim.kz)   
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