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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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Topic: Swiss infantry Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 16:12 |
Originally posted by TJK
TJK,
All I can tell you is that Oman used plenty of primary sources, and the damage that the rodeleros did has been noted by other major writers, like the late authority of European swords, Ewart Oakeshott. |
Well David, I'm far from dening that good trained swordsmen could make heavy damage in pikemens formation (as it was already shown in pahalanx vs legion fights) however our dispute here regards the Ravenna battle and in fact the question if the Spaniards have broke or not the landknechts formation (not only pikemens). The opinion of one scholar (even such famous as Charles Oman) could not prevail the works of Delbruck, Blau, Fraunholtz, Miller and Plewczyski..
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It's not just one writer. I quoted specifically from Oman, but I also mentioned Oakeshott (also very famous, as I'm sure you know), and Macchiavelli (who lived at the time that Ravenna took place).
In his Art of War, Machiavelli incorrectly referred to the landsknechts in the French army at Ravenna as "Swiss", but it still illustrates what happened:
"Everyone knows what numbers of Swiss infantry were similarly cut to pieces at the battle of Ravenna, for once the Spanish closed with the Swiss, they made such good use of their swords that not one of the enemy would have been left alive if a body of French cavalry had not come up to rescue them..."
Francesco Guicciardini, in his 1537 History of Italy, likewise described the action:
"...the Spanish infantry, abandoned by their cavalry, continued to fight with incredible ferocity; and although at the first encounter with the German footsoldiers, the Spaniards had been somewhat thrown by the firm and close order of the pikes, later coming to swords' point, many of the Spaniards, protected by their shields, had stabbed their way with daggers amidst the legs of the Germans, and managed to penetrate with very great slaughter almost to the center of the squadron.
...and the German footsoldiers, being pressed on the other side by the Spaniards, could scarcely resist any longer. But all of the cavalry having already fled, Monseigneur de Foix now wheeled about to charge against them with a body of horsemen. The Spaniards, therefore, withdrawing rather than driven out of the battle, and without any disorder, entered the passage between the river and the high bank, marching in step and close ranks, their front unbroken; their discipline and strength beat off the French attack, and the Spaniards began to withdraw."
In addition, Oman pointed out that all the senior landsknecht officers--Empser, Friberg, and Schlabrendorf, as well as 9 out of the 12 captains under them--were killed.
By your own admission, the Spanish weren't broken by the landsknechts--they were broken by French cavalry (and also, as I pointed out, by artillery). I have provided 16th century references that indicate that the superiority of targetiers against pikemen was noted time and again, even when such swordsmen no longer made up a major part of European armies.
'Nuff said.
Peace,
L_D
Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,
I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."
--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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TJK
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Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 17:45 |
OK David, I have not primary sources which can contradict yours (at the momement )..proven !
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Hyarmendacil
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 06:55 |
Back to the Swiss: would anyone volunteer an evaluation of the Swiss halberdiers (as opposed to pikemen) and their efectiveness? It's so much more difficult to find definitive references about them than to find ones dealing with their pike- and crossbow-armed comrades.
Edited by Hyarmendacil
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warhead
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 10:37 |
btw, what does the hedgehog formation look like? is there a picture that could be shown?
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Temujin
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 11:11 |
the advantage of the Halberd over the pike was that it was equaly effective against infantry as against cavalry, and you didn't needed to stay in formation.
unlike previous Phalanxes the pikemen were protected on al sides, and officers and sometimes arquebsuiers could take cover in the middle. it was the predecessor of the later Caree formation used in the 18th and 19th centuries.
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warhead
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 11:29 |
Ok, thanks. So the hedgehog is basically protected on all sides.
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Temujin
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 11:36 |
yeah, that's why it's called "hedgehog", another name for the formation was "wheel".
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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 22:13 |
Originally posted by Temujin
the advantage of the Halberd over the pike was that it was equaly effective against infantry as against cavalry, and you didn't needed to stay in formation. |
The halberd was not considered as effective as the pike, for large battlefield engagements. In fact, the pike became the main pole weapon of the Swiss infantry, after the deficiencies of the halberd were demonstrated at the Battle of Arbedo, in 1422. At that particular action, dismounted Milanese men-at-arms, under the famed condottiere Carmagnola, used their lances as pikes, and came close to defeating their Swiss opponents. The Swiss were badly shaken by the results of this battle, and they revised their entire infantry system afterwards, by adopting the pike on a wide scale.
Obviously, the halberd was more of an individual weapon, that could be used at close quarters to good effect against both enemy infantry and cavalry, and the latter was illustrated well in Albrecht Altdorfer's drawing from 1512, Knight Confronted by a Landsknecht in a Forest. However, the pike retained an obvious reach advantage. George Silver noted this in his Paradoxes of Defence from 1599:
"The long staff, morris pike, or javelin, or such like weapons above the perfect length, have advantage against all manner of weapons, the short staff, the Welch hook, partisan, or glaive, or such like weapons of vantage excepted..."
At the Battle of Bicocca in 1522, the Swiss captain of Unterwalden, Arnold Winkelried, fought with his halberd against the pike-armed "Father of the Landsknechts", Georg von Frundsberg. Frundsberg killed Winkelried.
FWIW.
Peace,
David
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"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,
I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."
--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 22:17 |
BTW, nice photos...
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"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,
I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."
--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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Hyarmendacil
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 08:15 |
Well, but the halberd must have been good at something for it to maintain some degree of popularity in the later years of the 15th century. Or--I suspect--was it popular because it was good at looking good, regardless of all questions about effectiveness?
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warhead
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 11:34 |
"The halberd was not considered as effective as the pike, for large battlefield engagements. In fact, the pike became the main pole weapon of the Swiss infantry, after the deficiencies of the halberd were demonstrated at the Battle of Arbedo, in 1422. "
He didn't say it was. His point was that the Halberd's superiority is in single combat.
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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 06:46 |
Warhead,
Originally posted by warhead
"The halberd was not considered as effective as the pike, for large battlefield engagements. In fact, the pike became the main pole weapon of the Swiss infantry, after the deficiencies of the halberd were demonstrated at the Battle of Arbedo, in 1422. "
He didn't say it was. His point was that the Halberd's superiority is in single combat.
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Show me where the phrase "single combat" appears in Temujin's post. Here it is:
Originally posted by Temujin
the advantage of the Halberd over the pike was that it was equaly effective against infantry as against cavalry, and you didn't needed to stay in formation. |
Nowhere above does he specify "single combat". All he says is that, when wielding the halberd, one "didn't needed [sic] to stay in formation". That implies troops fighting in a more open order--either halberdiers in a large battle filtering up to the front line to give close support to the pikes; or perhaps halberdiers fighting in a skirmish, like the English ones shown engaging Irish Gallowglass infantry, in that one plate from John Derrick's Image of Ireland (1581).
Peace,
Dave
Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,
I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."
--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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Temujin
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Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 12:10 |
well, what I wanted to say was that the halberd is more flexible and versatile than the pike.
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TMPikachu
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Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 12:47 |
the story of the pikeman killing the halbredier sounds like single combat...
So, would halberdiers been better in fighting the spanish swordsmen than the pikemen had?
Edited by TMPikachu
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Hyarmendacil
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Posted: 12-Oct-2004 at 06:26 |
All situations considered, since the halberdier usually had heavier and more complete armor, perhaps yes. But then, there are other factors (such as dense formations) that may nullify the halberdier's advantage in having a longer weapon. I'm not aware of the general level of skill among common halberdiers--whether they were trained to fight foes wielding shorter, more mobile weapons or not--so I'm not going to draw any general conclusion.
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Lannes
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Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 12:06 |
Originally posted by Temujin
unlike previous Phalanxes the pikemen were protected on al sides, and officers and sometimes arquebsuiers could take cover in the middle. it was the predecessor of the later Caree formation used in the 18th and 19th centuries. |
Actually, ancient Macedonian phalanxes had a defensive square formation they could form, that protected them from all sides. An example of this can be found at the Battle of Gabiene(316BC) between Antigonus and Eumenes. I'll explain:
Antigonus' cavalry had benn attacking the opposing cavalry with great success. However, Eumenes' phalanx was actually managed to rout part of the Antigonid phalanx, and was beginning to roll up the rest of the formation. Seeing this, Eumenes, attempted to rally his cavalry to attack, but one of his officers decided to retreat. Following suit, Eumenes retreated with his cavalry. Antigonus, with part of his cavalry, pursued Eumenes and his fleeing cavalry. One of Antigonus' commanders, Pithon, with another part of the Antigonid cavalry, pursued the fleeing infantry. However, the infantry formed into a defensive square, and thsuly, Pithon's cavalry was rendered useless. The infantry made it back to their camp.
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τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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Temujin
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Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 12:49 |
can you tell me your source for this?
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Lannes
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Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 14:54 |
Diodorus Siculus
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τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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