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BigL
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Topic: Roman infantry vs medieval Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 23:56 |
How do you think roman infantry would fare vs european medieval infantry ,considering that both sides have no archers or cavalry.
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majkes1
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Posted: 25-Mar-2006 at 05:06 |
I think Roman infantry would be better than European medieval infantry. If Europeans didin't have archers or longbowmens They wouldn't have a chance against Roman Legions. Only Hussites and Swiss could give Romans a good fight. Medieval European infantry was pathetic except 2 above mentioned and longbowmens but You probably meant that both sides don't have archers and longbowmen.
Medieval army was based on heavy knights so infatry wasn't that important like in Rome.
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Heraclius
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Posted: 25-Mar-2006 at 08:56 |
Medieval armies tended to be alot smaller than those the Romans used, only a small proportion of medieval armies were of high quality, the knights with their heavy armour and horses cost alot of money, meaning only a small percentage could possibly afford it. If the Medieval army was large, then you can bet that a large percentage of it is made up of poorly trained and equipped levies.
Whereas the Imperial army of Rome was entirely professional all with high quality equipment and training, the only draw back for the Romans is that in comparison to medieval foot knights they were relatively lightly armoured, i'm unsure how the pilum and gladius would have performed against such heavy armour. Though Medieval foot knights will have been much slower compared to the much more agile Roman infantry.
If cavalry were included then the medieval knights oughta wipe the floor with Romes cavalry, interms of archers I don't really think there'd of been to much difference, unless longbows were included. Rome had access to some excellent archers including horse archery.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 25-Mar-2006 at 09:41 |
Looks like this one should be moved to amusement.
The later medieval armies would wipe the floor with the Romans. The
same for armies of the High Middle Ages. Only in the disorganised Dark
Ages could the ancient Roman soldiery really have an overall advantage.
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Paul
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Posted: 25-Mar-2006 at 10:44 |
If Roman infantry was more effective than medieval infantry, they'de have used it in medieval times. Same principal we don't use napoleonic infantry now.
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edgewaters
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Posted: 25-Mar-2006 at 11:13 |
You can't really separate Roman infantry from its javelineers, cavalry, etc in a fair way. Roman tactics were dependant on a kind of organized "combined arms" approach. Many Medieval forces excelled at melee - troops like the huscarls, the Viking raider, etc.
Also, what epoch of the medieval period, and what epoch of the Roman period, are you referring to? Late medieval armies equipped with early firearms and cannon would have utterly decimated Roman forces. Even without, their metallurgical skills were far superior and their weapons and armour consequently much better. Knights on foot, equipped with the Italian made plate armours and pole-axes or halberds, would have waded through Roman lines with ease.
Perhaps if you took poorly equipped forces from the 9th or 10th centuries and pitted them against Roman forces from the height of imperial power, the Romans might conceivably prevail. On the other hand, even the most primitive forces of this period had elites or hired mercenaries forming high response groups, with heavy armour, intended especially to break shield-walls and shatter formations.
Originally posted by Paul
If Roman infantry was more effective than medieval infantry, they'de have used it in medieval times. |
Hmm ... I don't know if they could. Aqueducts were certainly alot better than going to the river with a bucket, but early medieval peoples generally did the latter.
Edited by edgewaters
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cattus
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Posted: 25-Mar-2006 at 11:56 |
Indeed. Vegetius could not help them regain their system and glory in the 4th century.
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Paul
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Posted: 25-Mar-2006 at 13:53 |
Originally posted by edgewaters
You can't really separate Roman infantry from its javelineers, cavalry, etc in a fair way. Roman tactics were dependant on a kind of organized "combined arms" approach. Many Medieval forces excelled at melee - troops like the huscarls, the Viking raider, etc.
Also, what epoch of the medieval period, and what epoch of the Roman period, are you referring to? Late medieval armies equipped with early firearms and cannon would have utterly decimated Roman forces. Even without, their metallurgical skills were far superior and their weapons and armour consequently much better. Knights on foot, equipped with the Italian made plate armours and pole-axes or halberds, would have waded through Roman lines with ease.
Perhaps if you took poorly equipped forces from the 9th or 10th centuries and pitted them against Roman forces from the height of imperial power, the Romans might conceivably prevail. On the other hand, even the most primitive forces of this period had elites or hired mercenaries forming high response groups, with heavy armour, intended especially to break shield-walls and shatter formations.
Originally posted by Paul
If Roman infantry was more effective than medieval infantry, they'de have used it in medieval times. |
Hmm ... I don't know if they could. Aqueducts were certainly alot better than going to the river with a bucket, but early medieval peoples generally did the latter. |
Roman aqueducts might have been superior but their metalurgy was greatly inferior. Medieval weapons and armour far supassed Roman in both strength and quality. Also in standardisation, unlike the medieval era the Romans never achieved any kind of standardisation of production and in a single unit identical peices of equipment could vary greatlely in design and quality having been made by different smiths.
Roman would have had some edges over medievals such as Marines, Engineers, Fortified Encampents and regular forces which probably could give a feudal medieval army a run for it's money. But from a high period onward where forces became more regular, the equipment gap would be too great.
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edgewaters
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Posted: 25-Mar-2006 at 15:34 |
Roman would have had some edges over medievals such as Marines, Engineers, Fortified Encampents and regular forces which probably could give a feudal medieval army a run for it's money. But from a high period onward where forces became more regular, the equipment gap would be too great. |
I think highly formational fighting was largely outdated even in the early medieval period. The warband had evolved into a heavily armoured unit of elite fighting men capable of crashing into formations and savaging any notion of an orderly battle. There's no reason early medieval forces couldn't have been using something like schiltrons or pike formations, except that they would have been slaughtered. Formational fighting only reappears as a response to very large cavalry groups and the need to protect muskets (or longbows), because there isn't any use for it before that. Even these were not nearly so dependant on structure as the highly specialized Roman forces.
Edited by edgewaters
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BigL
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Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 05:49 |
Saxon and viking used sheild wall tactics like the romans,maybe not as disciplined but making up with it in ferocity.later we see medieval infantry becoming more adapted to fighting cavalry.Historians used to think that the crusaders infantry force was undisciplined but they were used close support for the knights charge.
So infantry evolved to be a support group for a cavalry charge.something the knights could rally behind a line of spears.and once in melee with enemy cavalry infantry would run behind and protect flanks from enemy.
How effective medieval armies would be without its cavalry arm is the question against the roman army which although did use cavalry it was mainly infantry based more than most histories armies.
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edgewaters
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Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 06:26 |
Originally posted by BigL
How effective medieval armies would be without its cavalry arm is the question against the roman army which although did use cavalry it was mainly infantry based more than most histories armies. |
The knights evolved out of earlier, infantry-based groups of well-equipped elite warriors used as a powerful vanguard, to smash enemy lines.
Not all early medieval forces depended on cavalry. Norse groups didn't depend on it very much, early Saxon groups didn't depend on it very much, the Irish forces at Clontarf didn't use much cavalry. Even for the Franks, the heavy cavalryman was a relatively new development that didn't characterize their initial establishment as a power, but only later expansion. I think you could probably deprive a great variety of forces prior to the 10th century of their cavalry, with very little impact on their fighting strength.
If you're talking about the high middle ages, the knights of that time often fought on foot, equipped with halberds and other pole weapons. Their armour would have been virtually impenetrable to Roman arms. Special equipment was employed to deal with the plate armours coming out of centres of high craftsmanship (especially Italy) - bladeless spike-like daggers, flanged maces, small weighted hammers, and other weapons based on the principle of concentrating maximum force on a tiny area. The Romans were not equipped to deal with these armours, mounted or otherwise.
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BigL
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 18:42 |
okay Pre Full plate armour which is 15thcentury ,medieval times troops are armoured with chain mail armour,which is much different than armour that rome or its enemies used..
Lets imagine now that dismounted knights or medieval infantry are fighting the romans who are using sheild wall tactics to fight the medieval knight with big swords,would the knight be nullified like the celtic warriors
Edited by BigL
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edgewaters
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Posted: 31-Mar-2006 at 01:24 |
Originally posted by BigL
okay Pre Full plate armour which is 15thcentury ,medieval times troops are armoured with chain mail armour,which is much different than armour that rome or its enemies used.. |
Romans had chain mail. Late Roman military wasn't a whole lot different from medieval infantry:
Lets imagine now that dismounted knights or medieval infantry are fighting the romans who are using sheild wall tactics to fight the medieval knight with big swords,would the knight be nullified like the celtic warriors |
By 240 AD, the lorica segmentata disappears from the Roman armoury, and the cavalry stop wearing the muscle cuirass and skirt. The Marcomanni wars (c. 180 AD) are the last time segmentata and scutum shields are seen in any numbers; after that, it's all chainmail and oval shields. The ultimate evolution of Roman equipment was into a more or less early medieval style of equipment, although lacking - or at least underutilizing - a number of features (axes, pole weapons, blunt weapons, etc). The new equipment was derived from the kind of equipment the Marcomanni warrior class was using.
As far as the medievals, it largely depends on who you are talking about ... and what time period. Early medieval forces used shield-walls too, and were extremely experienced at penetrating them - that's why axes were so popular with the early Franks, the Norse, and the Saxons - the axe can reach over or around the shield to chop the bearer, hook it and rip it away, or just smash it. Blunt weapons which directed the force of impact to a very tiny contact surface negated the protection of metal armours of most kinds, and pole weapons evolved into incredibly complex forms suited to a wide variety of specialized tasks.
Edited by edgewaters
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BigL
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Posted: 31-Mar-2006 at 04:08 |
*i meant to say "which isnt much different than roman armour",
i did it at work lol but thanks for the confirmation of early medieval times.Later medieval times sees a movement in the long weapons halberds,long swords etc did these troops keep their formatation?
Edited by BigL
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edgewaters
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Posted: 31-Mar-2006 at 10:03 |
Originally posted by BigL
*i meant to say "which isnt much different than roman armour",
idid it at work lol but thanks for the confirmation of early medieval times.Later medieval times sees a movement in the long weapons halberds,long swords etc did these troops keep their formatation? |
Some did, but formations were not common in most nations (there were a few exceptions like Scotland and Switzerland). Infantry sort of disappears for a little while, being relegated to small numbers of skirmishers and archers/crossbowmen, mostly professional mercenaries, until the English embark on their great experiment with massed archer formations comprised of yeomen.
Shield walls were mostly obsolete by the high medieval period - they are more a feature of the Dark Ages and the early medieval period, and too easily smashed even without cavalry. When melee infantry formations really make a comeback, it is in formations like the schiltron or bill or pike formations - long, two-handed pole weapons.
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