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What if....Julian the Apostate had succeeded?

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Komnenos View Drop Down
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if....Julian the Apostate had succeeded?
    Posted: 16-Mar-2006 at 06:50
The Roman Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus died on the Ides of March in the year 1148 ab urbe condita, at the age of 64 and after 34 years as the undisputed ruler of the Empire.

Seen as the most able and important ruler of the early Roman Empire, Julians political and military successes, his social and religious reforms are still being regarded as the most significant factors in the restoration of the Empire after its deep crises at the end of the first millennium AUC. The successful defence of the Empire against the invading barbarian tribes in the North and his conquest of the Sassanid Empire in 1116 AUC after the Battle of Ctesiphon restored the military dominance of the Rome in Central Europe and the Middle East, and created the political foundations of the Modern Roman Empire whose current Emperor Gaius Trebonianus Gallus ascended to the throne in 2730 AUC.
But even more significant was the restructuring of the Imperial administration, and the relocation of the capital back to Rome in 1121 AUC, and foremost the rehabilitation of the traditional Roman religious cults and practises.
After Julianus famous edict of 1114 AUC had guaranteed religious freedom for all Roman citizens, and after the revoking of all political and legal privileges that had been granted to the Judaic sect of Christians, Christianity quickly had lost its dominance over the Eastern half of the Empire. Its following dwindled and today only a small Christian sect in Galilaea and the Anti-Lebanon remains.
Christianity as the quasi official religion of the Empire was replaced by the cult of Apollo/Helios the god behind the visible Sun, lord of the Intellectual worlds, the common father of all mankind, as Julian himself called him in his famous work Hymn to King Helios that until today is seen as the fundamental creed of the Helios cult. Julianus himself was elected Pontifex Maximus by the Roman college of Pontiffs, and under his guidance the Helios cult established a coherent organisation (with numerous temples and a hierarchy of priests all over the Empire), that has survived in its principal aspects until the modern age, and is still the dominant religion of Roman Empire.

Julianus funeral procession in Rome was led by the new Pontifex Maximus, his son and successor as Augustus, Marcus Aurelius Claudius Julianus, who also conducted the memorial celebrations in the Temple of Helios and Apollo on the Palatine Hill.



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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2006 at 15:48
AUC ... that's years from the founding of the city of Rome, right? I haven't seen it used much so I was a bit surprised.

The Christianity of that era was one that was well-suited to its own expansion among populations, but on the other hand, it wasn't the sort of thing that could easily be adapted to imperialist or national endeavours. In fact, it was the kind of religion that caused alot of difficulties for centralized authorities and institutions like the military. Early Christianity looked nothing like it does today - it was very radical, very much more pacifist and religiously intolerant. It was definitaly unsuited to use as a military cult as Mithraism has been, and could not have been used in the way the British Empire used it. As well, its habit of challenging the state religions, and its hostility towards popular cults like Mithraism etc, caused a crisis for Greco-Roman society in numerous respects and fostered alot of religious divisions that didn't exist in the syncretic atmosphere that had existed before the arrival of Christianity.

Not to mention, that the religion outright preached the destruction of Rome!

So, it's understandable why Julianus sought to reverse its spread. There were apostate leaders in other areas as Christianity spread, too. Bede mentions that there were a series of kings in Britain preceding Oswald of Northumbria, whose names have been stricken from chronicles of the time by decree of the church, because of their apostasy.

On the other hand, there really wasn't any fighting the spread of Christianity. It was a more complex religion very much geared to expansion and overtaking of earlier and simpler religions.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2006 at 17:35
Originally posted by edgewaters

AUC ... that's years from the founding of the city of Rome, right? I haven't seen it used much so I was a bit surprised.

Neither have I, I don't think it was much in use in the real Roman Empire itself. But as the disappearing of Christianity itself in this scenario also means that calculation of time by the birth of Christ must have come into disuse, there had to be some alternative.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2006 at 18:09
Nothing, one emperor wouldnt be able to turn back the wave of history
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 05:38
Well this is REALLY stretching the bounds of belief, both in his ability to sweep aside Christianity and his ability to conquer Persia (taking Mesopotamia might have been possible but not the whole Sassanid Empire).

But lets play along. The thing is, I actually don't believe it was Christianity which caused the collapse of the Empire. Christianity was simply Rome's attempt to reinvent itself in a world in which it was already failing badly. For my reasons about the collapse of Rome and the role of Christianity, see this post: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8938& ;PN=1&TPN=1


Anyway, what Rome really had to do was to create an indepth defence system which was able to respond to threats at the local level, reform its military to make it economically cheaper to support, while creating a system of government which was both responsive and unified. Without that, Julian's success might ultimately result in the life of the Empire being prolonged. But in the end it wouldn't save it and instead of one half of the Empire falling it is likely the sinking Western Empire would drag down the still attached East along with it.



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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 06:06
Originally posted by Constantine XI

The thing is, I actually don't believe it was Christianity which caused the collapse of the Empire. Christianity was simply Rome's attempt to reinvent itself in a world in which it was already failing badly.


As a state religion it was, but it also has to be remembered Christianity had been wreaking havoc in Roman society for a long, long time by then.

On the other hand, there were factors besides Christianity at work. Economics, for instance. It was cheaper to produce goods in the provinces using slaves than it was to hire Roman craftsmen, for instance. This led to massive unemployment in Rome itself, which became ever more dependant on imports from the provinces and ever less productive.

Free farmers couldn't compete with slave plantations, and every time they fell on hard times they would sell their land cheaply to the plantation owners, and this was very bad for the Empire - it was alot more difficult to raise soldiers from an area dominated by slave plantations than from an area characterized by small independant farms, and the local political power of the wealthy landowners at times challenged the distant central authority of Rome. The expansion of slave-run land during poor times was more or less permanent - they didn't divide up the land and sell it back to independant farmers later on.

The economics of slavery meant that the Empire could only sustain its economy by continually expanding not only its borders but the percentage of slaves in the population, and this caused the problem to grow exponentially worse. It just ran out of steam, after a point.

All kinds of factors were at work in Rome's collapse, Christianity was certainly one but it was hardly alone.
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