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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Scalping
    Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 14:51

After reading in my spare time about Native American warfare against Europeans, I thought of a few questions that weren't really covered.  So, I thought I would pose the question to our resident "Pre-columbian (and post-) Americas" experts:

Where (or with what tribe) did the practice of scalping enemies and non-combatants originate?  Was it first only something indian braves did after vanquishing an enemy in battle, in order to have a token of their victory? 

It seems the practice of scalping caught on with Europeans (and perhaps Western frontiersmen) in the New World.  Did the Europeans join in because of the economic gain in the selling of scalps with various tribes?

Also, I have always wondered, was this practice also found among the Central/South American (Aztec, Maya, Inca) indians as well?  

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 16:56
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor


Where (orwith what tribe)did the practice of scalping enemies and non-combatants originate? Was it first onlysomethingindian braves did after vanquishing an enemy in battle, in order to have a token of their victory?


It seems the practice of scalping caught on with Europeans (and perhaps Western frontiersmen) in the New World. Did the Europeans join in because of the economic gain in the selling of scalps with varioustribes?



You've got it backwards. Scalping originated with Europeans, as a way to collect bounties put out on natives. It is thought to have originated with the Earl of Wessex who put bounties on Irish scalps in the 11th century, since it was easier to transport these than whole heads.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 18:10

Originally posted by edgewaters

You've got it backwards. Scalping originated with Europeans, as a way to collect bounties put out on natives. It is thought to have originated with the Earl of Wessex who put bounties on Irish scalps in the 11th century, since it was easier to transport these than whole heads.

So basically, scalping was transplanted mainly by the English to Northern America?  The practice did eventually catch on with the Native Americans (maybe because they became tired of having it afflicted on them); did it not become more than just 'bounty collecting'?  With the Native Americans, did it not become something of an honor system to collect the scalps of enemies?

EDIT:

I was reading a journal article that says there is evidence from some of the early Spanish and French explorer accounts (de Soto in Florida in 1540 and Le Moyne de Morgues in 1564 in northeastern Florida)  of an exclusively Native American practice of scalping, mainly for the same reason, as evidence for taking a bounty.  Furthermore, it says there is much evidence for Native American dances and complex rituals centered around the act of taking scalps.  The article also cites archaeological evidence of pre-Columbian scalping.

James Axtell and William C. Sturtevant, "The Unkindest Cut, or Who Invented Scalping" William and Mary Quarterly 37, no. 3 (1980): 451-472.

 



Edited by Byzantine Emperor
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 19:05
As I understand it, scalping in the New World was mainly practiced by the Dutch (though the English certainly practiced it as well, eg against the Beothuk in Newfoundland).

As for Indians collecting scalps to collect "bounties" this is not really believable - who would pay these bounties? It doesn't make any sense at all, rewards for aggression in Indian societies never took monetary form but were always tied to status within the community. Even amongst the Aztecs - who had a centralized state and economy capable of making such payments - warriors who brought trophies of state enemies, such as foreign prisoners for sacrifice, were not paid any sort of currency for doing so.

I've heard about the archaeological evidence, and there have been other rare accounts of seeing a few scalps about native communities by the early explorers. However, neither are conclusive about the circumstances under which these scalps were obtained; it could have been part of a religious rite regarding dead ancestors and family members, for all we know. What is certain though is that such things seem to have been rare and their meaning uncertain, and as a widespread phenomena and a common feature of warfare, it originated with bounties put out by colonial administrations and was adopted by natives as a response in kind.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 19:24

Originally posted by edgewaters

As for Indians collecting scalps to collect "bounties" this is not really believable - who would pay these bounties? It doesn't make any sense at all, rewards for aggression in Indian societies never took monetary form but were always tied to status within the community. Even amongst the Aztecs - who had a centralized state and economy capable of making such payments - warriors who brought trophies of state enemies, such as foreign prisoners for sacrifice, were not paid any sort of currency for doing so.

Sorry, I meant to say as trophies of war, not bounties.  The North American indians were settled in relatively detached tribal communities, or loose federations of tribes, and had no centralized currency and economy like the Aztecs.

The article does make it seem that the practice of scalping was indeed more common among the indians (pre-Columbian and after) than what you might think  The ritual of cleaning and stretching the scalps and also the ritualized dancing connected with it were specifically ceremonies for the taking of scalps in war, not a rite for ancestors (p. 461-462)



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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 19:57

How can we know what rituals were about in pre-Columbian times? Or even that they existed? There's no doubt that scalping was ritualized in colonial times, but that doesn't mean it was always done that way or in the same context. If scalping were "common" in pre-columbian times, there would be more archaeological evidence and written accounts of it than exist presently. It existed - but it wasn't common, and no one can say with certainty what signifigance it had.

 

When we talk about scalping, what we usually mean is something specific: something that took place very frequently in conflict and was used as a system to reward the most prolific killers (whether with status or money). Simply taking scalps was something that had been around in isolated instances in both cultures for a very long time. Europeans (and other Eurasians) were scalping before the discovery of the New World. But it's really only during a certain part of the colonial period that it becomes a common phenomena, and its root as such is almost certainly due to the bounties.

 

To answer an earlier question, though, you asked if scalps (in the colonial period, I presume) were taken only from the vanquished. On neither side is this true. Natives would cut scalps from men killed while asleep, and Europeans would take scalps from women and children (and probably the sleeping, too) since they were all worth money. In neither case do they seem to have been trophies of battle so much as trophies of a kill.



Edited by edgewaters
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 15:51


The mesoamericans did not practiced the scalping.
However, they had another rituals to claim trophies.
Mexicas as an example, when theyr were under the dominion of the tepanecas and were sent to war agaisnt the xochimilcas, the mexica warriors returned victorius with bags full of ears amputated from their dead enemies.

Also, the mexicas used to take the skulls from the sacrified enemies and settle into an structure named Tzompantli.

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 18:12

Originally posted by Jalisco Lancer

The mesoamericans did not practiced the scalping.
However, they had another rituals to claim trophies.
Mexicas as an example, when theyr were under the dominion of the tepanecas and were sent to war agaisnt the xochimilcas, the mexica warriors returned victorius with bags full of ears amputated from their dead enemies.

Also, the mexicas used to take the skulls from the sacrified enemies and settle into an structure named Tzompantli.

What did the Mexicas do with the ears that they brought back?  Did they install them in some kind of structure like the skulls or did they actually wear them on a chain or something?  I vaguely recall reading something about Central American indians wearing their trophies of war in this manner.

Jalisco, what role did human sacrifice have in Central American indigenous society?  I think one of the early Spanish explorers (Cortez, perhaps) wrote about the Aztecs sacrificing Spanish captives on pyramids.  Was this common place or a nuanced scare tactic of the time?

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 18:32
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor


what role did human sacrifice have in CentralAmerican indigenous society? I think one of the early Spanish explorers (Cortez, perhaps) wrote about the Aztecs sacrificing Spanish captives on pyramids. Was this common place or a nuanced scare tactic of the time?



Diaz , one of Cortes' men, described that. Although, it's a little debatable if he ever actually saw it. In his account he say's he was standing on the shore of Lake Texcoco, after the Noche Triste, in a town that was some miles away from Tenochtitlan. He describes that he saw men's hearts being removed, but plainly, he could not have made out these kind of details (even though it quite likely did, actually, happen).

Sacrifice played a different role in different Mesoamerican societies. In some cases, sacrifices were voluntary, and used to ensure fertility of the soil or rain or what have you. In other cases, defeated leaders would be sacrificed. It was not practiced in the Yucatan to the same degree that it was practiced in the Valley of Mexico.

Tenochtitlan (the Aztecs) used sacrifice to terrify their enemies, if Diaz's account is to be believed, they had massive horns and drums playing while sacrifices were taking place, which could be heard in all the cities on the lakeshore. They sacrificed fairly large numbers of people, relative to groups like the Maya.

The Inca also undertook human sacrifice. It isn't really clear how much. Defeated captives were sacrificed, but also there were other sacrifices used to dedicate important buildings, and buried in their foundations.

EDIT

I'm just going through Diaz here ... seems I may have made an error. The part where he describes hearts being taken out is not after the Noche Triste, but while they are "guests" of Moctezuma, during which time they attend and observe a sacrifice. My bad.

Interestingly, he also describes the Spaniards boiling down dead Indians from the battlefield to make grease.

Edited by edgewaters
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 18:33


Hi Bizantine,

Human sacrificies were very diversed depending on the celebration, the deidity, etc.

The methods used went from decapitation, death by immersion on water, famine,coccion, lapidation, etc.

The Mayas, Teotihuacans and others practiced the human sacrifiec to please the Gods and assure a sucessful harvesting.

Mexicas indeed practized the human sacrifices for the same purposes, but also to intimidate to the enemies and organized settled wars on a small scale to assure a supply of prisioners for sacrifices and train their troops on the arts of war.

The mexica empire was controlled from Tenochtitlan with a population of 200-250K people. It was a great way to keep scare to the remaining 15 Million under their dominion and ensure tributes, lands and allies for the future wars.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 07:23

Actually, Edgewaters, you have it a bit backward.

Axtell, an authority on the subject:

"Scalps were not mere trophies or booty of war, however," Axtell wrote. "The whorl of hair on the crown and especially male scalp locks, braided and decorated with jewelry, paint, and feathers, represented the person's `soul' or living spirit. To lose that hair to an enemy was to lose control over one's life, to become socially and spiritually `dead', whether biological death resulted or not."

It was rarely used by native indians out of respect for the slain warrior, and was used as a means of defiling an especially hated enemy of their dignity of dying in battle (dying in battle was one of the most sacred acts a male indian could do).  However Europeans weren't considered "human" by indian standards and the same codes of morality did not apply to the treatment of the Euros who had fallen in battle. (or were considered undeserving of honourable death)

Europeans, finding it much easier to travel through the expansive wilderness with scalps rather then human heads, started collecting scalps instead (or redskins, as they were called)




Edited by zerza
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 01:09
I read a book by a Historian named Hugh Thomas, he wrote a book called Cortes, Montezuma and the fall of old Mexico, in there i believe to have read a part where he says that the mexica priests used to wear scalps around their waist...I dont know if anyone would like to comment on that matter....
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  Quote Hope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 18:09
Hi all
 
I did a project regarding Native Americans last year, one of the topics I chose to focus on was scalping. I agree to much of what Zerza states, but scalping the way it became known as through comics, books and movies originated as edgewaters says in Europe. The Earl of Wessex is the first man known to pay bounty for scalps.
 
When the settlers entered the New World, they used this as a way to keep Native numbers down and some of their more dubious characters of their own people preoccupied. Remember that the borderland was filled with crooks, murderers and criminals who tried to avoid the law of their homelands.
 
Natives started scalping for these reasons:
 
1: Eye for an eye-tactic. If the Colonials scalp us, we scalp them. This was a way of showing contept.
 
2: Bounty. Some Natives killed for bounty. Not tribes, but individuals. This bounty was issued by for instance the British.
 
In the Southwest, scalping did not start before the American Government had issued a bounty reward for Apache scalps, as a part of their Native politics.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2013 at 11:52
The Scythians were known to scalp enemies in Classical times
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2013 at 13:26
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2013 at 14:48
Originally posted by Hope

Hi all
 
I did a project regarding Native Americans last year, one of the topics I chose to focus on was scalping. I agree to much of what Zerza states, but scalping the way it became known as through comics, books and movies originated as edgewaters says in Europe. The Earl of Wessex is the first man known to pay bounty for scalps.
 
When the settlers entered the New World, they used this as a way to keep Native numbers down and some of their more dubious characters of their own people preoccupied. Remember that the borderland was filled with crooks, murderers and criminals who tried to avoid the law of their homelands.
 
Natives started scalping for these reasons:
 
1: Eye for an eye-tactic. If the Colonials scalp us, we scalp them. This was a way of showing contempt.
 
2: Bounty. Some Natives killed for bounty. Not tribes, but individuals. This bounty was issued by for instance the British.
 
In the Southwest, scalping did not start before the American Government had issued a bounty reward for Apache scalps, as a part of their Native politics.
 
 
 
 
Several errors here:
Evidence exists that scalping was common place in NA at least as contemporaneously as W. Europeans arrived. To include as recently as 1325AD. There is no direct evidence that suggests they learned it from the Norse colonialist for example.
See: Hall Steckel, Richard; R. Haines, Michael (2000) A Population History of North America.
 
Secondly, scalping was employed on both sides prior to the pre-colonial wars and during.
 
Numerous examples of inter tribal warfare, before contact, as documented in Chronology of American Indian History by Liz Sonneborn.
 
Thirdly the Mexican government initiated the practice prior to the Americans, reference the Apache, in 1835.  Earlier, the Aztecs, for example (14th-16th ce.), were practitioners of flaying and this may well have included include scalping. there is also evidence of the Toltec and Mayan as well if one includes headhunting and ritual head removal as inclusive of scalping.
 
 
And finally a better reference is Axtell's ''Scalps and Scalping" Encyclopedia of North American Indians.
 
 
All in all, the comments in the op, I'm quoting, suggest a anti-western colonial bias and are indicative of the lack of research that is necessary to answer the question. Especially for 21st ce W. Europeans.....who have a fixation on the glamorization of all things, 'Native American Culture'; as noble and without fault.
 
 
 
Iow. Insufficient and inadequate research is no justification for revisionism simply to support a bias.
 


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 30-Jan-2013 at 15:36
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2013 at 15:17
Throughout history, warriors have taken trophies to display as signs of their prowess in battle, ranging from entire heads to ears to scalps.

Although the practice varied among the many peoples of the American Indians, some were exceptionally cruel (the Chiricahua Apache, for ex.) and took scalps.  Others just tortured their captives to death.

European settlers were no better and practiced similar customs, mostly for the same reasons plus bounty money.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2013 at 12:41
Originally posted by Mountain Man


European settlers were no better and practiced similar customs, mostly for the same reasons plus bounty money.
 
And as a side note, so did Mexcian mestizos and some Mexican indian tribes.  Mexican authorities routinely placed bounties on Apache scalps and then encouraged both mestizos and traditional tribal enemies of the Apaches to collect them.
 
In theory, the bounties were payable only for adult male apaches of certain, pre-designated "problem" bands.  Not surprisingly, things in practice quickly deteriorated with bounty hunters collecting scalps from Apaches in general, and then moving on to Mexicans and friendly Indians.
 
Also scalping was practiced by irregular units in the U.S. civil war:  sociopathic Confederate guerilla "Bloody Bill" Anderson's unit routinely took them (at least when they were not operating with confederate main force units).  Likewise, Kansas Native American units affiliated with union "Jay Hawker" irregulars  also took them from real and imagined confederate guerillas (including from Anderson's men).


Edited by Cryptic - 31-Jan-2013 at 13:12
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2013 at 19:50
I've heard Sherman's men (many of whom were ex-jayhawkers) used to scalp the dead. Troops from Kansas were particularly brutal as they robbed and murdered indiscriminately:
http://www.oakgrovehistory.com/huntcivilwarmemories.htm
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2013 at 10:51
Originally posted by Nick1986

I've heard Sherman's men (many of whom were ex-jayhawkers) used to scalp the dead. Troops from Kansas were particularly brutal as they robbed and murdered indiscriminately:
http://www.oakgrovehistory.com/huntcivilwarmemories.htm
 
I dont think your source regarding Sherman and scalping was accurate.  Sherman was a disciplinarian and despite the free wheeling plundering during his march, there were very few atrocities against confederate civilians during the march. 
 
That is not to say that small groups of union soldiers, or maybe even problem companies did not straggle behind / veer of off the main march and commit atrocities, but such groups would have been the exception, not the norm. 
 
Though the only scalping that I have heard of during the ACW was in Kansas / Missouri and involved irregular units, I have read that on isolated occasions, some of the pro confederate / pro union irregulars in the Appalachian mountains  (very bitter, family / grudge based, "tit of tat" violence) cut the ears off of enemy corpses.  
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 01-Feb-2013 at 10:56
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