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merced12
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Topic: Was Alexander an ethnic greek? Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 18:52 |
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&a mp;db=PubMed&list_uids=11260506&dopt=Abstract
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es
HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.
very interesting article about macedonians
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http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``
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RomiosArktos
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Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 18:59 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Macedonians and Epirotes were allowed to
take part in the Olympic games,something allowed at that time only to
those who had GREEK blood in their veins.
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This is untrue.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4687276.stm
What happened when Alexander of Macedon applied to race in the Olympics?
B. Greek athletes protested, saying they would not run with a barbarian
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What is not true?Do you believe that barbarians could also
participate in the ancient Olympic games.If yes, then tell me the names
of the Thracians or the Illyrians leaders that participated.I am
waiting!
bg_turk,in my opinion it is a very nasty habit to distort the
truth by quoting just what is suitable for your propaganda,and by
taking a phrase from a text without mentioning the context.
Let's see what Herodotus really said about what happened when King Alexandros of Macedonia participated in the Olympic games:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atex t%3A1999.01.0126;query=chapter%3D%23791;layout=;loc=5.21.1
XXII. Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks,
as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in
the later part of my history. Furthermore, the Hellenodicae1 who manage the contest at Olympia determined that it is so, [2] for when Alexander chose to contend and entered the lists for that purpose, the Greeks who were to run against him wanted to bar him from the race, saying that the contest should be for Greeks and not for foreigners. Alexander, however, proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek. He accordingly competed in the furlong race and tied step for first place. This, then, is approximately what happened.
So as you see he was judged by the Hellanodikes to be a Greek, and he paricipated finally in the games.
Edited by RomiosArktos
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RomiosArktos
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Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 19:27 |
In the following episode,Alexandros the first,King of the Macedon,
murders the Persian envoys in Macedonia,prior to the Persian invasion:
XX. When Amyntas made this request and had gone his way, Alexander said to the Persians, Sirs, you have full freedom to deal with these women, and may have intercourse with all or any of them. [2] As
to that, you may make your own decision, but now, since the hour of
your rest is drawing near and I see that you are all completely drunk,
allow these women to depart and wash, if this is your desire. When they
have washed, wait for them to come to you again. [3] When he had said this and the Persians
had given their consent, he sent the women out and away to their
apartments. Alexander then took as many beardless men as there were
women, dressed them in the women's clothes, and gave them daggers.
These he brought in, and said to the Persians, [4] I believe, men of Persia,
that you have feasted to your hearts' content. All that we had and all
besides that we could find to give you has been set before you, and now
we make you a free gift of our best and most valued possession, our own
mothers and sisters. Be aware that in so doing we are giving you all
the honor that you deserve, and tell your king who sent you how his Greek viceroy of Macedonia has received you hospitably, providing food and bedfellows. [5] With that, Alexander seated each of his Macedonians next to a Persian, as though they were women, and when the Persians began to lay hands on them, they were killed by the Macedonians.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atex t%3A1999.01.0126;query=chapter%3D%23789;layout=;loc=5.21.1
Take a look here:
http://www.macedonia.info/kings.htm
Alexander the first was an ancestor of Alexander the 3rd,the Great.
Edited by RomiosArktos
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Paul
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Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 19:40 |
Was Alexander the Great an ethnic Greek.
No.
Because the Greeks, just like the Turks, are not ethnic groups.
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RomiosArktos
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Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 19:47 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by Digenis
What exactly do u want to prove ?:
1.Ancient macedonians werent greeks ?
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yes, ancien macedonians were not ethnically greek.Bu they adopted
some greek customs, and they viewed greek culture as a superior one.
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But what Herodotos said about their origins is pretty much clear.Are
there any reason why we should be believe you and not Herodotos?
Are you trying somehow to compare yourself with Herodotos?
Originally posted by bg_turk
2.Kings of macedonia werent greek ?
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As the macedonians themselves were not greek, naturally their kings werent either.
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Are you sure?Take a look again in what Herodotos says about Alexander and the Argead dynasty.
Originally posted by bg_turk
3.The descendants of ancient macedonia are the people of FYROM?
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The decendants of the Macedonians are both the people of the Macedonian province in greece and the Republic of Macedonia.
It is well known that slavs arrived in the region much later,
and linguistically or culturally they have hardly any association with
the ancient macedonians, as do many of the greeks in the rest
of Macedonia, many of whom are not indgenous to macedonia but anatolian
settlers from the greco-turkish war. They have no macedonian roots.
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Don't you think that the descendants of Macedonia should speak Greek and not Bulgarian?
The only descendants of the Macedonian Greeks are us,the real
Macedonians,the Greeks.Proud of being of Dorian ancestry and speaking
Greek(as our Macedonian ancestors did) and not a western Bulgarian
dialect
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RomiosArktos
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Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 19:48 |
Originally posted by Paul
Was Alexander the Great an ethnic Greek.
No.
Because the Greeks, just like the Turks, are not ethnic groups. |
What do you mean?Explain yourself!
Edited by RomiosArktos
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RomiosArktos
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Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 19:53 |
Originally posted by Digenis
1.Why did they speak an ancient Greek dialect? Why did they worshiped Greek gods? Why Olympus is half in Macedonia? Why did they participate in the Olypic games ?(name "barbarians" who did this) Why their towns had Greek names?
2.Why
ALL the kings of Macedonia had GREEK names ? (even before they came
with contact with the Southern-since the founding of the kingdom) Perdikas,Archelaos,Argaios,Aeropos,Alexandros,Phillipos,etc etc etc
3.What happened really to the ancient macedonians after the roman conquest ? do u know? read and tell me ...
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bg_turk,try this quiz,not just the easy BBC one
If you fail to answer these questions it will be considered as a lack
of arguments, it will finally prove your total ignorance and will
definitely show to anyone that it is a waste of time arguing with you!
Edited by RomiosArktos
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Paul
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Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 19:55 |
Originally posted by RomiosArktos
Originally posted by Paul
Was Alexander the Great an ethnic Greek.
No.
Because the Greeks, just like the Turks, are not ethnic groups.
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What do you mean?Explain yourself!
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The writer of the question has put forward the speculation that Greeks are an ethnic group. Later posts have implied that some people speculate Turks are an ethnic group too. Thus far no evidence has been supplied in support of either of these speculations.
Edited by Paul
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Neoptolemos
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 01:38 |
Originally posted by Paul
Originally posted by RomiosArktos
Originally posted by Paul
Was Alexander the Great an ethnic Greek.
No.
Because the Greeks, just like the Turks, are not ethnic groups.
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What do you mean?Explain yourself!
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The writer of the question has put forward the speculation that Greeks are an ethnic group. Later posts have implied that some people speculate Turks are an ethnic group too. Thus far no evidence has been supplied in support of either of these speculations. |
I don't understand why you say that Greeks are not an ethnic group. Could you please tell as what is your definition of "ethnic group"?
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akritas
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 03:19 |
Originally posted by Paul
Was Alexander the Great an ethnic Greek.
No.
Because the Greeks, just like the Turks, are not ethnic groups.
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What is a ethnic group for you editorial Paul ?
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 04:38 |
#yes, ancien macedonians were not ethnically greek.Bu they adopted some greek customs, and they viewed greek culture as a superior one #
U r simply bogus. Ancient macedonians were a greek tribe. Customs differed between greek tribes. A greek tribe who didnt share all the customs of its neighbouring tribes wasnt less Greek.
#As the macedonians themselves were not greek, naturally their kings werent either#
My poor chap naturally this has the name of 'total ignorance'. There r Tens of cases where kings had different ethnicity than their subjects.
Ptolemy ----> Egypt, Seleucos ---------> Syria, Menander ------> India
#The decendants of the Macedonians are both the people of the Macedonian province in greece and the Republic of Macedonia. It is well known that slavs arrived in the region much later, and linguistically or culturally they have hardly any association with the ancient macedonians, as do many of the greeks in the rest of Macedonia, many of whom are not indgenous to macedonia but anatolian settlers from the greco-turkish war. They have no macedonian roots. #
Thats Total bull. Both linguistically and culturally greeks of Macedonia are associated with ancient Maks. This is not The case for FYROM.
#There is no evidence they spoke an ancient greek dialect. This is still very much under dispute. What is undisputable is that they used the greek script, as did the Thracians, because that was the only script of the time. #
*correction* Evidences exist or speaking an ancient greek dialect . What is undisputable and no secret is that u have no clue about classical ages.
#They may have worshipped greek gods, Thracians too worshipped some greek gods like for instance Ares/Mars, the god of war#
and? Did thracians joined the rest of Greeks on religious festivals as in Olympia, Lycaia or Amphictyonies as ancient Maks did?? My poor boy u r not only clueless. U discover new ways of boasting it.
#They did not participate in the Olympic games. Greek participants refused to compete with barbarians.#
U r deep in the barrel of general illiteracy. Many Macedonian kings participated in the Olympic games on many races as Archelaos and Phillip II. Get a clue.
P.S anybody can tell me how do u quote posts?
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Neoptolemos
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 05:21 |
Originally posted by VaZeLoS
P.S anybody can tell me how do u quote posts?
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Ela re Panatha! In order to quote posts press the "quote" button at the top right of the post you want to quote.
Edited by Neoptolemos
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Paul
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 07:52 |
Originally posted by akritas
Originally posted by Paul
Was Alexander the Great an ethnic Greek.
No.
Because the Greeks, just like the Turks, are not ethnic groups.
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What is a ethnic group for you editorial Paul ?
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Maybe you should ask someone who uses the term? How about you?
I don't use it myself, I prefer the term multi-cultural.
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akritas
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 08:30 |
Originally posted by Paul
Originally posted by akritas
Originally posted by Paul
Was Alexander the Great an ethnic Greek.
No.
Because the Greeks, just like the Turks, are not ethnic groups.
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What is a ethnic group for you editorial Paul ?
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Maybe you should ask someone who uses the term? How about you?
I don't use it myself, I prefer the term multi-cultural.
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Of course you kidding
You are the one that said Greeks are not ethnic group and not me. That's i am asking you again what is for you a ethnic group ? When you answer I shall deposit and my opinion as about the etymological term.
and I add one more question in my un-answered first one. What are the Greek people for you. A multi-cultural people or something else ?
Edited by akritas
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Digenis
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 15:46 |
I can't see any arguments for the non-greekness of Macedons.... Can i have any real proof for the "macedonisness" of the Slavs of Skopje region ? Are they macedons by blood? Are they macedons by culture?
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bg_turk
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 15:58 |
Originally posted by barish
Mars was a Roman god, not Greek. |
Most greek gods had roman equivalents:
Greek Roman
Aphrodite Venus
Artemis Diana
Hermes Mercury
Zeus Jupiter
Poseidon Neptune
etc...
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Paul
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 16:09 |
Originally posted by akritas
Originally posted by Paul
Originally posted by akritas
Originally posted by Paul
Was Alexander the Great an ethnic Greek.
No.
Because the Greeks, just like the Turks, are not ethnic groups.
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What is a ethnic group for you editorial Paul ?
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Maybe you should ask someone who uses the term? How about you?
I don't use it myself, I prefer the term multi-cultural.
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Of course you kidding
You are the one that said Greeks are not ethnic group and not me. That's i am asking you again what is for you a ethnic group ? When you answer I shall deposit and my opinion as about the etymological term.
and I add one more question in my un-answered first one. What are the Greek people for you. A multi-cultural people or something else ?
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You are the one who seems to believe the term ethnic greek has any meaning at all, not me, you define it.
In case you are unaware of logic, it's impossible to define something that doesn't exist.
To answer your second question, I just did, didn't I? Are you implying a person born in Greece who's parents migrated to Greece from another part of the world is less Greek than anyone else.
To ask you a question, is you belief in ethnic Greeks a kind of 1930's quasi-nazi theory based on racial, blood, genetics and descent style nonsense?
Edited by Paul
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bg_turk
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 16:18 |
Originally posted by Yiannis
So am I to understand that ancient Macedonian culture was so "weak" that was completely overcome by the Greek one? Apparently, according to bg turk's logic, the Macedonians after they conquered the Southern Greeks (actually they only fought Athenians and Thebans with the help of other Greeks - not any other Greek cities) and the Persian empire all the way to India, they failed to leave any "Macedonian" culture behind and all that was spread to the conquered lands was the Greek (conquered) one.
Sorry but it doesn't make sense. Even if one was ever to accept that reasoning, s/he would also had to accept that the Macedonians "became" Greek, which is an even greater achievement of the Greeks and a testament to their superiority
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Didn't a similar think happen in the Eastern Roman empire, which was originally part of the Roman Empire, but after the split it was gradually hellenized?
If it is going to satisfy your greek ego, yes, the macedonians adopted hellenic customs as did the thracians, but they never considered themselves greeks but proud macedons. Certainly Greek civilization was one of the most advanced cultures of Antiquity. It is only a pity that with your narrowminded nationalism and distortions of history, you fall so short of your ancestors today.
Thracians and Macedonians were gradually incoroprated and assimilated into the slavic tribes who arrived in the region, that were later to become the bulgarians and the slavs of macedonia. Other were assimilated by the greeks.
You will note that Bulgarians and Macedonoians (the slavic ones) have dark hair unlike the rest of the Slavs. Additionally Greek and Slavic Macedonians look very similar to each other, and much more "Balkan" looking than the true Greeks from Pelopones and Thessaly.
Additionally the fact that many of the greek residents of Macedonia today are in fact originally from Mikroasia, displaced by the greco-turkish war, complicates greek claims over Macedonian history further.
Edited by bg_turk
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St. Francis of Assisi
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 16:35 |
I think a distinction should be made between Hellenic in culture and Hellenic in ethnicity. The Ancient Macedonians were Hellenic in culture but not ethnicity, same with the Epirotes. The Illyrians and Thracians were Hellenic in neither culture nor ethnicity. However, the modern Macedonians are not the ancient Macedonians, nor are the modern Bulgarians the ancient Thracians. The modern Greeks are the ancient Greeks, and the modern Albanians are the ancient Illyrians. that pretty much sums this up.
Alexander was not then, I don't think, an ethnic Greek, but a Macedonian-Epirote. However, this is irrelevant, as he did more than anyone to spread Hellenic culture.
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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman
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Digenis
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Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 16:42 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
1.Didn't a similar think happen in the Eastern Roman empire, which was originally part of the Roman Empire, but after the split was gradually hellenized?
2.Thracians and Macedonians were gradually incoroprated and assimilated into the slavic tribes who arrived in the region, that were later to become the bulgarians and the slavs of macedonia. Other were assimilated by the greeks.
3.You will note that Bulgarians and Macedonoians (the slavic ones) have dark hair unlike the rest of the Slavs. Additionally Greek and Slavic Macedonians look very similar to each other, and much more "Balkan" looking than the true Greeks from Pelopones and Thessaly.
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Bg_Turk ,u always make my day! Although ,always u try sneaky pass your propaganda u say so funny things that i cannot get angry with u! 1.A little detail.... People of Eastern Empire were already speaking Greek,had Greek culture ,and most of them were Ethnically Greek.... [If u agree that this happened to Macedons too thats ok (being greek,speaking greek having greek culture before they beated the Polis)] 2. When Slavic tribes arrived in the Region they didnt find any Macedonians.After 750 years of the Roman Conquest,500 of the christianization,350 after they became "Roman citizens" ,people of the region considered themselves "Rhomaioi"/"Romioi"-Romans-Byzantines.The same as in the other regions of Balcans and Anatolia. They were Orthodox Christians,and they were speaking Greek.On the contrary the Slavs were pagans,who later became christians and were speaking Slavic dialects. The new-comers found a higher culture lever,and an organised society descendant of the Greek-Roman culture and they entered another state. Its obvious ,that it would be peculiar for the natives(descendants of ancient Macedonians),to abondon their greek language(koene),and their benefits of organised society and become parts of the new -comers. So if -ethnically and calturaly- some people are descendants of the ancient Macedonians are for sure todays Greeks of Macedonia.(not those who were expelled from A.Minor) I am from Greek Macedonia-and my ancestors where.Can u explain me how the hell they were found in this region ?> There isnt anywhere mentioned an movement of southern Greeks to the North and colonising Macedonia. So whats the explanation of the existence of the native -greek speaking population ????????????3. This is ridicilous I doubt u ever saw any Greek live Make new posts -u re becoming more and more amusing!
Edited by Digenis
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