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underestimating France?
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    Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 11:14
Why is it when people diss France they always say France never won nothing. guess these guys never heard of Napoleon or Charlemagne or William of Normandy?
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 12:37
or the 1998 world cup and 2000 European championship.
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 18:17

Originally posted by o'bannon

Why is it when people diss France they always say France never won nothing. guess these guys never heard of Napoleon or Charlemagne or William of Normandy?

It's the old "what have they done recently?" that gets 'em.

 

 
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Posts: 2200 		  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 19:05
only arrogant people say that...but then again they also think that Africa is a country ...so it doesnt really matter.
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 19:27

Originally posted by mamikon

only arrogant people say that...but then again they also think that Africa is a country ...so it doesnt really matter.

Please explain.

 
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Posts: 2200 		  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 20:13
lol, ok

in my experience, people who tell me that France did not win anything are usually not intelligent, have a poor background in history and geography...
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 20:23

Originally posted by mamikon

lol, ok

in my experience, people who tell me that France did not win anything are usually not intelligent, have a poor background in history and geography...

Hmmm....thanks. 

After 1919, France's achievements in international politics, and it's history rather suggests more failure and geographic regression than anything else.

Of course, France is prosperous and secure, but that is much obliged to the Marshal Plan, and to NATO, regardless of what the French think.  Britain, The Soviet Union and The USA did not have Nazi stooges running their countries for four years.  And they did not have to be liberated by someone else.

 
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Posts: 2200 		  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 20:32
yes, that is true...but you are comparing France in both WWI and WWII with the strongest country at those times, Germany. 

If Great Britain was not an island, and was connected to Germany, you can bet they would have been gonners too

And lets not forget, France is still one of the strongest countries in the world...now how would a country that has not won anything, be at the top of the food chain for the past 1000 or so years
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 20:55

mamikon:

I will concede that until about 1860, France was a formidable part of the political community (at least in Europe).

Within the next 30-40 years, they were eclipsed by Britain, the German Empire and the United States (and then later by Russia/Soviet Union).  The exhaustion of France was not generally realized until the 1930s.  After 1940, France was a spent force.

France was certainly a large and prosperous power 1660-1860.  But for 100 years before that it was an almost unending seat of civil war, and had been well defeated by the Habsburgs from about 1500 to 1559.

And, from 1700-1815, its most successful generals were foreigners.  Marechal The Duke of Berwick (Jacobite Scots/English), Marechal Moritz de Saxe (German) and Napoleone Buonaparte (Corsican of Italian ancestry)

The French, I think, cling to glories past, and there are many of them.  However, the attitude of the French (the French elites, mostly) in the 21st century is rather absurd.  They are the recipient of American defense largesse in NATO; British foreign policy that directly benefits them, and German economic industriousness and capital development that France tends to take credit for.

Charlemagne was a Frank, and therefore a German.  William the Bastard was a barely French Norman.  The French elites in their Givenchy suits, and with their Bordeaux, Roquefort and Anjou pears would be appalled!

My view anyway.

 



Edited by pikeshot1600
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Posts: 2200 		  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 21:02
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

mamikon:

I will concede that until about 1860, France was a formidable part of the political community (at least in Europe).

Within the next 30-40 years, they were eclipsed by Britain, the German Empire and the United States (and then later by Russia/Soviet Union).  The exhaustion of France was not generally realized until the 1930s.  After 1940, France was a spent force.

France was certainly a large and prosperous power 1660-1860.  But for 100 years before that it was an almost unending seat of civil war, and had been well defeated by the Habsburgs from about 1500 to 1559.

And, from 1700-1815, its most successful generals were foreigners.  Marechal The Duke of Berwick (Jacobite Scots/English), Marechal Moritz de Saxe (German) and Napoleone Buonaparte (Corsican of Italian ancestry)

The French, I think, cling to glories past, and there are many of them.  However, the attitude of the French (the French elites, mostly) in the 21st century is rather absurd.  They are the recipient of American defense largesse in NATO; British foreign policy that directly benefits them, and German economic industriousness and capital development that France tends to take credit for.

Charlemagne was a Frank, and therefore a German.

My view anyway.

 



well yes compared to Soviet Union, Great Britain, Germany, and USA it was a spent force...however

lets draw some parallels between politics, the real world or whatever you want to call it and chess.

A grandmaster who constantly loses to the rank 1, rank 2, rank 3 in the world is still a lot better than an amateur who beats novices
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 22:05
Just a saturday night thought- fulll of rum and Moroccan weed... while France may be hated by everyone  -and maybe not without reason- it's also the heart of Europe. 

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 584 		  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 06:29
Originally posted by Maju

Just a saturday night thought- fulll of rum and Moroccan weed... while France may be hated by everyone  -and maybe not without reason- it's also the heart of Europe. 


Word. Perhaps its fate is in fact inextricably tied to its particuar geographical location.. no?

BTW, that Moroccan s*& 'll f*&^ u up! I once went near-raving through the streets of Marrakesh with a blanket wrapped around me after doin too much of that stuff.




Edited by Halevi
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 07:07
Originally posted by Halevi

Originally posted by Maju

Just a saturday night thought- fulll of rum and Moroccan weed... while France may be hated by everyone  -and maybe not without reason- it's also the heart of Europe. 


Word. Perhaps its fate is in fact inextricably tied to its particuar geographical location.. no?


Absolutely. Geography isn't destiny but it is a conditionant.

Anyhow, France used to be the largest country of Europe demographically too for a long time. That also marked France a lot historically, as it was the most powerful realm in its region naturally yet balanced by internal weaknesses (feudalism and feudal wars) or external "alliances" (Habsburg Empire).

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 584 		  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 07:16
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Halevi

Originally posted by Maju

Just a saturday night thought- fulll of rum and Moroccan weed... while France may be hated by everyone  -and maybe not without reason- it's also the heart of Europe. 


Word. Perhaps its fate is in fact inextricably tied to its particuar geographical location.. no?


Absolutely. Geography isn't destiny but it is a conditionant.

Anyhow, France used to be the largest country of Europe demographically too for a long time. That also marked France a lot historically, as it was the most powerful realm in its region naturally yet balanced by internal weaknesses (feudalism and feudal wars) or external "alliances" (Habsburg Empire).


Yes, but what about the hash? ; ) jk
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 18:00
The hash is off topic...

Understand that when  wrote those lines I was so high (or rather low) that I had to review the message twice before I dared to click "post". Words were all roWds... if you know what I mean.

Too much rum.

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Posts: 584 		  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 01:44
Originally posted by Maju

The hash is off topic...

Understand that when  wrote those lines I was so high (or rather low) that I had to review the message twice before I dared to click "post". Words were all roWds... if you know what I mean.

Too much rum.


Yes, i do know what you mean... but lets not get off topic ; )
"Your country ain't your blood. Remember that." -Santino Corelone
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Posts: 658 		  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 05:14

Seriously, take a look at this:

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html
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Posts: 584 		  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 05:42
Originally posted by Frederick Roger

Seriously, take a look at this:

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Seriously, though, everyone always forgets about Napoleon. *He conquered Europe, people.* ... its just everything that's happened since thats so amusing.

"Your country ain't your blood. Remember that." -Santino Corelone
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 08:08
Sorry for abusing this thread but could anyone explain me why so many people don't like France or at least say so. Great Britain and the USA have a special history with France. But what about the rest? Did some people decide to dislike the French and now everyone swims with the tide?
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Posts: 584 		  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 08:24
Originally posted by Vespasianus

Sorry for abusing this thread but could anyone explain me why so many people don't like France or at least say so. Great Britain and the USA have a special history with France. But what about the rest? Did some people decide to dislike the French and now everyone swims with the tide?


We here in English Canada tend to swallow the Ango-stereotype of the French whole... this isnt helped by our sometiemes-messy relations with the Francophone Quebecois, who like to out-French the French.

All in all, i really like France... i lived there for a while as a kid, and really enjoyed it. They have great writers, cinema, architecture and are staunch secularists, which is pretty cool. Paris rocks. Et les moules et frites... mon dieu..!


"Your country ain't your blood. Remember that." -Santino Corelone
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