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Ottoman Wars of the 17th century
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Evrenosgazi View Drop Down
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Posts: 379 		  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ottoman Wars of the 17th century
    Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 10:40
We know that there is major two land war which Turks lost in 17th century. These are St.Gothard and Zenta, which Montecuccolli and Eugene commanded respectively. The similarites between this wars was Christian armies caught Ottoman army when they were passing the bridge. In Zenta army was passing Tizsa and in St.Gothard they were passing Sava. They rubbled the bridges and the most part of the ottoman armies stucked against the enemy and the river. The major part of the armies stayed at the other side of the river and they could only watch the battle. So I think we can say that this 2 generals was really wise and brave . They stop the invasion of their countries by attack and clever decisions. If Ottomans had some kind of this general, would they live this defeats and withdraw from Hungary. Other way of this question is if Ottoman had Montecuccolli and Eugene, they would win? 
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Jagatai Khan View Drop Down
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Posts: 1270 		  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 11:25
Yes
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Mosquito View Drop Down
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 19:05

Well, in 17th century Ottomans also lost twice against Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania. Especially interesting case was a battle of Khotyn (Chocim) where commander of Ottomans forces was sultan Osman II.

From Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khotyn

In the Battle of Khotyn in 1621, an army of 160,000 Turkish veterans, led by Osman II, advanced from Adrianople towards the Polish frontier. The Turks, following their victory in the Battle of Cecora, had high hopes of conquering Poland. The Polish commander Jan Karol Chodkiewicz crossed the Dniester in September 1621 and entrenched the Khotyn Fortress, blocking the path of the Ottoman march. The Commonwealth hetman held the sultan at bay for a whole month, until the first snow of autumn compelled Osman to withdraw his diminished forces. But the victory was dearly purchased by Poland. A few days before the siege was raised, the aged grand hetman died of exhaustion in the fortress on September 24, 1621. The Commonwealth forces held under the command of Stanisaw Lubomirski. The battle, described by Wacaw Potocki in his most famous work Transakcja wojny chocimskiej, marked the end of the long period of Moldavian Magnate Wars.

In 1673, the Polish hussars again fought a major battle on this site. This time Polish forces under the command of soon-to-be-king Jan Sobieski defeated the Ottomans on 11 November 1673.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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ataman View Drop Down
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 01:02

Originally posted by Mosquito

In the Battle of Khotyn in 1621, an army of 160,000 Turkish veterans,

Polish modern historians claim that there were only about 110 000 -120 000 Ottomans (including Tartars). And what does it mean 'veterans'? Is that mean 'professional soldiers'? If so, it is next misunderstanding, because most of Ottoman army was a common leavy.

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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 05:23
Originally posted by ataman

Originally posted by Mosquito

In the Battle of Khotyn in 1621, an army of 160,000 Turkish veterans,

Polish modern historians claim that there were only about 110 000 -120 000 Ottomans (including Tartars). And what does it mean 'veterans'? Is that mean 'professional soldiers'? If so, it is next misunderstanding, because most of Ottoman army was a common leavy.

Well, another argument to not trust in Wikipedia
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Leonardo View Drop Down
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Posts: 778 		  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 06:52

Curiously Raimondo Montecuccoli is almost unknown in Italy, even if he was a famous military leader and he wrote a once famous memoir of his military campaigns "Della guerra col Turco in Ungheria" (About the war against the Turks in Hungary).

I guess he was not loved by Italian nationalists because of his service for Habsburgs. Eugenio di Savoia was also in service for the Habsburgs but he was too famous to be ignored.



Edited by Leonardo
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Posts: 314 		  Quote Sarmata Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 01:18
I like the battle of Cecora with Zolkiewski, even thought he battle was lost, Zolkiewski died a good death. I cant help but to feel that thought Turks and Poles waged many wars with eachother they respected eachother on the battlefield.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 09:18

Same can be said for the Germans and Poles, mutual respect.



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Raider View Drop Down
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Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 09:27
Originally posted by Leonardo

Curiously Raimondo Montecuccoli is almost unknown in Italy, even if he was a famous military leader and he wrote a once famous memoir of his military campaigns "Della guerra col Turco in Ungheria" (About the war against the Turks in Hungary).

I guess he was not loved by Italian nationalists because of his service for Habsburgs. Eugenio di Savoia was also in service for the Habsburgs but he was too famous to be ignored.

Montecuccoli had a rather bad reputation in Hungary. Reportedly he said that war needs only three things: money, money and money. As a good mercenary he tried to avoid open battles and only fight when he had to. (St. Gotthard)  Additionally his named connected to the disgraceful treaty of Vasvr. Moreover his rival was the national icon Mikls Zrnyi (the younger), so he had rather bad press.
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violentjack View Drop Down
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Posts: 269 		  Quote violentjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 14:28
Ok,some wars 17 century

1606 Zitva Catastrophy,Ottoman defeat,peace signed same year on moth of river Zitva

1645-1669 20 year old war,Mletani war most famous
First year Ottoman suffered defeats while they lost towns of Klis,Solin,Makarska all the way untill 1650.Ottoman rebounded next year but then again lost even more lands.Two major battles battle of Novi Zrin 100 000 Christians against even force of Muslims.Muslims sacked the town and killed estimated 15 000 Christians and brought 8000 slaves.Saint Godhartd terible defeat of Ottomans under Montecoculi

Then there was military 16 year old war Wienna Wars 1683-1699
Kara Mustafa pasa grand visier tried to take grand city of Wienna,even Bosnians padishas and visiers told him not to try take the town.
Terible losing
From then on Ottomans will get another defeat at Szenta where again Sultan army was crashed

Outcome
Ottomans lost Hungary,Lika,Slavonia,Belgrade,but with peace treaty they managed to take it back
Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite
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