Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

In what sense is the Christian Church "one"?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: In what sense is the Christian Church "one"?
    Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 08:58
Regarding the unification of the Christian Church, Komnenos hit a spot with his observation that the ruling classes eventually created and enforced the leading Christian dogma. Though many Christians may believe that this type of thinking is heresy due to the assumed fact that the Nicean conferance only adhered to prevalent Christian doctrine established in the Bible. Eventually the Bible is ambiguous about the meanings of trinity and church. The ruling elites politicised Christianity and continue to do so when new issues are faced by the elite and flock.

Edited by Seko
Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2091
  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 11:00

Originally posted by Wrageowrapper

As far as religious rites, like the use of latin Catholic mass, are concerned you might be able to argue that there are major differences in the various sects of Christianity. However, what lies at the core of Christianty, what I like to call Christian philosophy, is what unites all the churches. The biggest of these philosophies is the idea of salvation. Iam not a Christian but ive done a little philosophy at ol university.

Unless of course I totally misread the argument.

*edit* Ok I did misread it, were only talking about the Catholic church. Iam sorry.

NO!!! We are not only talking about the Catholic Church; we are talking about the essential nature of the Christian faith. Good post .

-Akolouthos

Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2091
  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 11:33

Originally posted by Komnenos

Didn't that have more to do with the fact that an iconodule ruler, Irene, came to the throne who threw her power and influence behind the cause?
And iconoclasm came back, btw, and was only finally refuted by another Empress, Theodora, a few decades later.

A point but, perhaps not one that strikes to the heart of the issue. Aye, politics are a necessary part of determining doctrine, but I would not say that this denies the possibility that the Spirit could work through these means. The point I was making--and I do recognize that it is debatable--is that whether it be Arianism, Iconoclasm, Nestorianism, or any of a number of other heresies that have looked to triumph by political means, eventually they were refuted.

Originally posted by Cuauhtemoc

As we can see, unity is possible but only if our beliefs come from the Word of God only. We must get rid of the manmade doctrines that have been added over the centuries. All who are willing to follow the Word of God and drop manmade ideas can be unified as Jesus said on His Word. The Holy Spirit guided the Apostle Paul to write that if the Word alone is preached as Jesus said, then one would have sound doctrine and the truth, please note the point in 2 Timothy 4:1-4. Here is a quote of the passage,

I think we, perhaps, do not disagree . I do think, however, we might have a different understanding of how the Word of God is to be interpreted--which gets to the heart of the question .

Originally posted by Cuauhtemoc

As we can see from the passage Akolouthos, Christians are to preach the Word, whether it is popular or not. The Word is used interchangably with "sound doctrine" and with the "truth". Thus anything NOT found in the Word of God is an addition that is not sound and not truth. Thus clearly "unity" is found when we all decide to follow the Word of God, and that obviously means very great changes and the elimination of many manmade doctrines. How else Akolouthos can we be of the "same mind" as stated by the Apostle Paul as he wrote in 1 Corinthians 1:10? However as we can see the passage I quoted above, the problem is that people would rather have "itching ears" and have manmade doctrines instead of follow the truth. That unfortunately is the condition of the denominational world today. Unity is not on the basis of diversity, for that is not true unity at all as we know. Unity is thus possible if those who call themselves followers of Jesus are willing to do what it takes and follow the Word of God alone. Only in that sense, can the church of Christ be one

I think that such a narrow--and that by no means implies uninformed; please do not read it that way--understanding of the role of Scripture denies the presence of the Holy Spirit in the modern Church. It is the Church that has, from the earliest days of her existence, interpreted Scripture and preached sound doctrine. Though, as a result of there being one universal truth, there will inevitably be those who fall into error (even within the Church, for man is far from perfect), through the guidance of the Spirit in the Church we may be assured of adhering to truth. I would not view Tradition as an addition to the faith; I would view denying that the Church established by Christ can be guided by Scripture in its present deliberations as taking away from the faith.

In support of the authority of the Church to decide and preach sound doctrine I would refer to the following words of Christ:

Assuredly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 18: 18)

As for the nature of the way in which the Church should determine doctrine, both in the days of the Fathers as well as in modern times, I refer to the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, without which neither you nor I would have the Word. This, I feel, provides a basis for the traditional understanding of the role of the Church, as well as for the development of canon law. Of course the Church, composed of imperfect men, is bound to be imperfect insofar as it refuses to heed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Church, however, is perfect insofar as it seeks and follows the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To deny that the Church can, as a collective whole, receive the guidance of the Spirit in our modern era places a limitation on the power/energies of God.

-Akolouthos

P.S. Halevi, I will respond to your post in the other thread. Forgive me, I seem to have gotten drawn into this discussion. This, coupled with the grad work I am currently undertaking, has occupied most of my time.

Back to Top
Komnenos View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361
  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 12:41
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by Komnenos

Didn't that have more to do with the fact that an iconodule ruler, Irene, came to the throne who threw her power and influence behind the cause? And iconoclasm came back, btw, and was only finally refuted by another Empress, Theodora, a few decades later.


A point but, perhaps not one that strikes to the heart of the issue. Aye, politics are a necessary part of determining doctrine, but I would not say that this denies the possibility that the Spirit could work through these means. The point I was making--and I do recognize that it is debatable--is that whether it be Arianism, Iconoclasm, Nestorianism, or any of a number of other heresies that have looked to triumph by political means, eventually they were refuted



I'm afraid here our ways part.
As much as I like to discuss the Council of Nicaea or the Iconoclast schism, I can only discuss them as historical phenomena, which I believe is the only manner we should discuss this here.(Don't get me wrong, I don't want to censor anybody here)
If you or somebody else believe in the workings of divine forces behind these events, is entirely up to you and you have all the right to do so, but in the end it all boils down to the age old conflict between simple faith and empirical investigation.
While the political implications of the Nicene creed can be deducted from historical research, the notion that the holy Spirit was at work here, is an expression of speculative belief, and as such not debatable.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2091
  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 13:59

Originally posted by Komnenos

I'm afraid here our ways part.
As much as I like to discuss the Council of Nicaea or the Iconoclast schism, I can only discuss them as historical phenomena, which I believe is the only manner we should discuss this here.(Don't get me wrong, I don't want to censor anybody here)
If you or somebody else believe in the workings of divine forces behind these events, is entirely up to you and you have all the right to do so, but in the end it all boils down to the age old conflict between simple faith and empirical investigation.
While the political implications of the Nicene creed can be deducted from historical research, the notion that the holy Spirit was at work here, is an expression of speculative belief, and as such not debatable.

Couldn't agree with you more. I do believe that the workings of the Holy Spirit are debatable, but they must be debated within the discourse in which they exist. Once again, debating from extremely different premises is a formula for confusion and, ultimately, two people babbling on to themselves. I suppose we should try not to babble then...but it's so fun .

-Akolouthos



Edited by Akolouthos
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.