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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Atheism in the world
    Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 02:56
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Leonardo

Very interesting also this quote from the same wikipedia article:

 

Islam

In Islam, atheists are categorized as kafir (), a term that is also used to describe polytheists, and that translates roughly as "denier" or "concealer". The noun kafir carries connotations of blasphemy and disconnection from the Islamic community. In Arabic, "atheism" is generally translated ilhad (), although this also means "heresy". As the Sharia punishment for apostasy in Islam is death and such apostasy is also widely socially disapproved of, atheists (as well as converts from Islam to other religions) in Islamic countries and communities frequently conceal their non-belief. The surveys mentioned above that indicate 100% religious belief in certain Islamic countries should be interpreted in light of this fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Wrong. Apostates can only be killed if they cause turmoil in a society. In other words if they commit treason, or do a Salman Rushdie.
Normal people can come and go when they please. Islam is between you and God and nobody else.



So they can be killed if they express their opinions - like Salman Rushdie...

... or myself.

Is that Muslim tolerance?

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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 03:09
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

     The very fact that Pagans and Agnostics/Atheists are known as "deniers" or "concealers" in Islam should be a good enough reason to not admit to being one when you're in a country under Islamic law

     That's assuming that the statement was actually true. I don't know. But I'd rather be safe than sorry.

kafir translates as pagan or unbeliever.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 03:11
Originally posted by Maziar

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Leonardo

Very interesting also this quote from the same wikipedia article:

 

Islam

In Islam, atheists are categorized as kafir (), a term that is also used to describe polytheists, and that translates roughly as "denier" or "concealer". The noun kafir carries connotations of blasphemy and disconnection from the Islamic community. In Arabic, "atheism" is generally translated ilhad (), although this also means "heresy". As the Sharia punishment for apostasy in Islam is death and such apostasy is also widely socially disapproved of, atheists (as well as converts from Islam to other religions) in Islamic countries and communities frequently conceal their non-belief. The surveys mentioned above that indicate 100% religious belief in certain Islamic countries should be interpreted in light of this fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism


Wrong. Apostates can only be killed if they cause turmoil in a society. In other words if they commit treason, or do a Salman Rushdie.
Normal people can come and go when they please. Islam is between you and God and nobody else.

Oh come on, you don't believe it yourself. Only in Germany i dare to consider me as an atheist.


Thats sharia, if countries apply other punishments it isn't sharia. There is often a difference between what people do and what people should do. Saying the sharia punishment is death is wrong because sharia is what you should do.

Originally posted by Maju


So they can be killed if they express their opinions - like Salman Rushdie...

... or myself.

Is that Muslim tolerance?

Last I checked Maju, you weren't a muslim and weren't causing turmoil.


Edited by Omar al Hashim
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 08:40
Last I checked Maju, you weren't a muslim and weren't causing turmoil.

So killing Salman Rushdie is fair game?
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 09:24
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


Last I checked Maju, you weren't a muslim and weren't causing turmoil.


According to you and others Rushdie is not a Muslim and according to me he's not causing any turmoil. What cuases turmoil is the persecution he is victim of.

And yes, I am causing turmoil: don't you see it every day - it's my destiny.


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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 19:21
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Last I checked Maju, you weren't a muslim and weren't causing turmoil.

So killing Salman Rushdie is fair game?

Originally posted by Maju

According to you and others Rushdie is not a Muslim and according to me he's not causing any turmoil. What cuases turmoil is the persecution he is victim of.

Rushdie is entitled to a trial first. I think that the maximum punishment is possibly death, but I should let a judge (qazi) decide that. His actions testify that he is not a muslim now, before I have no idea.
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 22:35
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Last I checked Maju, you weren't a muslim and weren't causing turmoil.

So killing Salman Rushdie is fair game?

Originally posted by Maju

According to you and others Rushdie is not a Muslim and according to me he's not causing any turmoil. What cuases turmoil is the persecution he is victim of.

Rushdie is entitled to a trial first.


A trial for what?!

He's just a writer. Which is his crime? Blasphemy? Blasphemy is not a crime: at most it may be a misdeamanor.


 I think that the maximum punishment is possibly death, but I should let a judge (qazi) decide that. His actions testify that he is not a muslim now, before I have no idea.


Death penalty for an opinion? I see how democratic and tolerant you are. You truly are a fascist. Your attitude has no other name. Even fascists woudl be more flexible.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 03:07
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Last I checked Maju, you weren't a muslim and weren't causing turmoil.

So killing Salman Rushdie is fair game?

Originally posted by Maju

According to you and others Rushdie is not a Muslim and according to me he's not causing any turmoil. What cuases turmoil is the persecution he is victim of.

Rushdie is entitled to a trial first.


A trial for what?!

He's just a writer. Which is his crime? Blasphemy? Blasphemy is not a crime: at most it may be a misdeamanor.

A trial for what? A trial for spreading turmoil and predujuce of course. I never said he was guilty, it is not my job to judge.


 I think that the maximum punishment is possibly death, but I should let a judge (qazi) decide that. His actions testify that he is not a muslim now, before I have no idea.


Death penalty for an opinion? I see how democratic and tolerant you are. You truly are a fascist. Your attitude has no other name. Even fascists woudl be more flexible.

An opinion is one thing, spread turmoil is another, get the difference its really easy. Its the difference between being a peaceful person and spreading war.
I'm such a fascist I want everyone to get along .
I'm so tolerant I want people to respect one another.
If democracy doesn't aid those two things, then whats the point of democracy. I think we should start looking at other systems. Its just a system not a sacred value.
A just King is superior to a great democracy, but a working (albeit bad) democracy is better than an unjust king. A non-working democracy is just terrible but.
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Posts: 651 		  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 03:25
Democracy is working there is no doubt about.

"Democracy is the best form of the worst type of government"
Winston Churchill
"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 03:35
Originally posted by Richard XIII

Democracy is working there is no doubt about.

Depends where. It didn't work in Pakistan
Originally posted by Richard XIII


"Democracy is the best form of the worst type of government"
Winston Churchill

So true. I wouldn't mind hearing the rest of that speech
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Posts: 651 		  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 04:41

"The price of the democratic way of life is a growing appreciation of people's differences, not merely as tolerable, but as the essence of a rich and rewarding human experience."

Jerome Nathanson

Pakistan doesn't pay the price and I know how hard is for Romania after 16 years of payment.


Edited by Richard XIII
"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

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Posts: 154 		  Quote Theophos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 10:03
Pakistan is democratic?? That's a very subtle definition of democracy, I guess.
"I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 19:21
Originally posted by Richard XIII


"The price of the democratic way of life is a growing appreciation of people's differences, not merely as tolerable, but as the essence of a rich and rewarding human experience."

Jerome Nathanson

Pakistan doesn't pay the price and I know how hard is for Romania after 16 years of payment.

The problem in Pakistan is illiteracy, corruption, lack of security and the feudal system. The Zamidars (landlord/dukes) would hold all the ID cards for the villagers who live on their land, therefore controlling all their votes. Vote rigging was a norm. Before democracy will work in Pakistan a strong government (like a King or Military dictator) needs to correct these issues.

Originally posted by Theophos

Pakistan is democratic?? That's a very subtle definition of democracy, I guess.

Pakistan has been democratic in the past, but the dictatorships work better in my opinion. The last two "democratically elected" governments were practically just looting the country for their personal gain.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 11:45
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Last I checked Maju, you weren't a muslim and weren't causing turmoil.

So killing Salman Rushdie is fair game?

Originally posted by Maju

According to you and others Rushdie is not a Muslim and according to me he's not causing any turmoil. What cuases turmoil is the persecution he is victim of.

Rushdie is entitled to a trial first.


A trial for what?!

He's just a writer. Which is his crime? Blasphemy? Blasphemy is not a crime: at most it may be a misdeamanor.

A trial for what? A trial for spreading turmoil and predujuce of course. I never said he was guilty, it is not my job to judge.


 I think that the maximum punishment is possibly death, but I should let a judge (qazi) decide that. His actions testify that he is not a muslim now, before I have no idea.


Death penalty for an opinion? I see how democratic and tolerant you are. You truly are a fascist. Your attitude has no other name. Even fascists woudl be more flexible.

An opinion is one thing, spread turmoil is another, get the difference its really easy. Its the difference between being a peaceful person and spreading war.
I'm such a fascist I want everyone to get along .
I'm so tolerant I want people to respect one another.
If democracy doesn't aid those two things, then whats the point of democracy. I think we should start looking at other systems. Its just a system not a sacred value.
A just King is superior to a great democracy, but a working (albeit bad) democracy is better than an unjust king. A non-working democracy is just terrible but.

If you think 'causing turmoil' could be a reason to sentence somebody to death, surely you should agree that those Danish imans who were stirring muslims up against Denmark should be brought to death to, don't you?
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Posts: 154 		  Quote Theophos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 12:39

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

If you think 'causing turmoil' could be a reason to sentence somebody to death, surely you should agree that those Danish imans who were stirring muslims up against Denmark should be brought to death to, don't you?

That's a very good point. Perhaps they should, in Omar's view.
"I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."
--John 14:6
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 15:47
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Last I checked Maju, you weren't a muslim and weren't causing turmoil.

So killing Salman Rushdie is fair game?

Originally posted by Maju

According to you and others Rushdie is not a Muslim and according to me he's not causing any turmoil. What cuases turmoil is the persecution he is victim of.

Rushdie is entitled to a trial first.


A trial for what?!

He's just a writer. Which is his crime? Blasphemy? Blasphemy is not a crime: at most it may be a misdeamanor.

A trial for what? A trial for spreading turmoil and predujuce of course. I never said he was guilty, it is not my job to judge.


Look, Salman Rushdie is a European citizen, just like I am. Under European and British law, which are the ones that apply he is not just "not guilty" but absolutely "innocent".

It's not your job to majke false accusations either. You are showing you are a fascist and that you want to interfere in our civil rights. You are just feeding Islamophobia with such attitude.




 I think that the maximum punishment is possibly death, but I should let a judge (qazi) decide that. His actions testify that he is not a muslim now, before I have no idea.


Death penalty for an opinion? I see how democratic and tolerant you are. You truly are a fascist. Your attitude has no other name. Even fascists woudl be more flexible.

An opinion is one thing, spread turmoil is another, get the difference its really easy. Its the difference between being a peaceful person and spreading war.
I'm such a fascist I want everyone to get along .
I'm so tolerant I want people to respect one another.
If democracy doesn't aid those two things, then whats the point of democracy. I think we should start looking at other systems. Its just a system not a sacred value.
A just King is superior to a great democracy, but a working (albeit bad) democracy is better than an unjust king. A non-working democracy is just terrible but.


You are a fascist because you want just the "peace of cementeries": you want "everybody to get along" under the Sharia and the Muslim Inquisition, you want everybody "to respect" Muslim taboos but you are not willing to respect others' liberties. You want that the horrendous criminal laws that you have in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia be applied in Europe. No thanks: apply them to yourself: throw yourself down a cliff before sonmebody accuses you of "spreading turmoil" - whatever that means.


Edited by Maju

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Posts: 156 		  Quote Turkish Soul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 22:22
I pray Allah that he created me as a Muslim.I am sorry for athesits because they are in depression and can't find happiness,strength.In turkish "huzur" After the events in Denmark I prayed much more for being a muslim.Only an atheist and dishonest man could do this.Muslims will never forgive that man.I am sure.Is he still living
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Posts: 156 		  Quote Turkish Soul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 22:26

Killing people ara not solving problems. Islam must bring us tolerance.When I see an atheist I leave the place without saying kafir,if I stay I try to explain Allah with all my heart.
dardanos
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 00:40
Originally posted by Turkish Soul

I pray Allah that he created me as a Muslim.I am sorry for athesits because they are in depression and can't find happiness,strength.In turkish "huzur" After the events in Denmark I prayed much more for being a muslim.Only an atheist and dishonest man could do this.Muslims will never forgive that man.I am sure.Is he still living


You are also a fascist and you are showing the low moral quality of the adpts of your religion: people who only seem to think in killing. I dont pray: I don't need to... I am satisfied with my own role in the universe, which is probably of much better moral height than that of those fanatic assasins that only think in praying and killing.

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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 03:59
Originally posted by Maju


You are a fascist because you want just the "peace of cementeries": you want "everybody to get along" under the Sharia and the Muslim Inquisition, you want everybody "to respect" Muslim taboos but you are not willing to respect others' liberties. You want that the horrendous criminal laws that you have in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia be applied in Europe. No thanks: apply them to yourself: throw yourself down a cliff before sonmebody accuses you of "spreading turmoil" - whatever that means.

You should think before you speak.
I have never said Europe or anywhere else should embrace sharia. I have repeatedly slammed Saudi Arabia, and I have no illusions about Pakistans "justice" system.
All I have done is correct you when you are wrong about sharia and told you what is actually in sharia.

I believe that European law is closer to sharia than the laws of many muslim countries (even if it is completely accidental)

I just HATE people who pretend they know something when they are abosolutely ignorant about it. Regardless of what I think about the topic!
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