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Han Wudi vs Cao Cao

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Poll Question: Do you think an army under Han Wudi could defeat an army under Cao Cao
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
1 [33.33%]
2 [66.67%]
0 [0.00%]
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Han Wudi vs Cao Cao
    Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 17:28
i know there is technological difference, but the difference isn't that great enough to affect the result in ancient time since even peasant rebels can somehow manage to win.
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 20:05

Cao Cao is superior to Han Wudi in both command and tactics.  Han Wudi has ambition and character, but he never personally commanded an army.  Cao Cao, on the other hand, carved out of an empire for himself and his progeny. 

In short, Cao Cao pinoeered, while Han Wudi inherited an empire.

Han Wudi's achievements looked to be greater than Cao Cao's because he started his career as emperor, while Cao Cao started his career as a subordinate of General He Jin. 

Now, lets take away the context.  Suppose both Liu Ce and Cao Cao started off as ordinary men.  Cao Cao, the more talented man, would achieve more than Liu Ce, who is not too shabby himself.

If Cao Cao were in Han Wudi's position, then it is very likely that the Han Empire could have been even more powerful.  Personally, I think that if Liu Ce were to be anything other than emperor, he would be ok/mediocre, not great.  Cao Cao, on the other hand, would thrive in any position.

In peaceful times, Cao Cao would have become a great prime minister, on par with Le Yi and Guan Zhong.  In warring times, Cao Cao became one of history's most admirable dictators.  Cao Cao was a multitalented man; his criticism of Sun Tzu's art of war remain a classic; his administrative skills laid the fundation of the Wei-Jin period; his poetry ushered a new age of literature. 

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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 20:17
Originally posted by poirot

Cao Cao is superior to Han Wudi in both command and tactics.  Han Wudi has ambition and character, but he never personally commanded an army.  Cao Cao, on the other hand, carved out of an empire for himself and his progeny. 

In short, Cao Cao pinoeered, while Han Wudi inherited an empire.

Han Wudi's achievements looked to be greater than Cao Cao's because he started his career as emperor, while Cao Cao started his career as a subordinate of General He Jin. 

Now, lets take away the context.  Suppose both Liu Ce and Cao Cao started off as ordinary men.  Cao Cao, the more talented man, would achieve more than Liu Ce, who is not too shabby himself.

If Cao Cao were in Han Wudi's position, then it is very likely that the Han Empire could have been even more powerful.  Personally, I think that if Liu Ce were to be anything other than emperor, he would be ok/mediocre, not great.  Cao Cao, on the other hand, would thrive in any position.

In peaceful times, Cao Cao would have become a great prime minister, on par with Le Yi and Guan Zhong.  In warring times, Cao Cao became one of history's most admirable dictators.  Cao Cao was a multitalented man; his criticism of Sun Tzu's art of war remain a classic; his administrative skills laid the fundation of the Wei-Jin period; his poetry ushered a new age of literature. 

he actually did. if u have watched han wu da di, han wudi personally led an army of 180,000 when he was old. during this campaign, they build the han memorial hall in the land of xiongnu. of course, that was after the xiongnu were already defeated several times.

but what i am asking is not a han wudi led army vs a cao cao led army but an army under han wudi vs an army under cao cao.

it depends on the general, and han wudi doesn't lack talented generals such as general fok.



Edited by Sino Defender
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 21:14
Originally posted by Sino Defender

Originally posted by poirot

Cao Cao is superior to Han Wudi in both command and tactics.  Han Wudi has ambition and character, but he never personally commanded an army.  Cao Cao, on the other hand, carved out of an empire for himself and his progeny. 

In short, Cao Cao pinoeered, while Han Wudi inherited an empire.

Han Wudi's achievements looked to be greater than Cao Cao's because he started his career as emperor, while Cao Cao started his career as a subordinate of General He Jin. 

Now, lets take away the context.  Suppose both Liu Ce and Cao Cao started off as ordinary men.  Cao Cao, the more talented man, would achieve more than Liu Ce, who is not too shabby himself.

If Cao Cao were in Han Wudi's position, then it is very likely that the Han Empire could have been even more powerful.  Personally, I think that if Liu Ce were to be anything other than emperor, he would be ok/mediocre, not great.  Cao Cao, on the other hand, would thrive in any position.

In peaceful times, Cao Cao would have become a great prime minister, on par with Le Yi and Guan Zhong.  In warring times, Cao Cao became one of history's most admirable dictators.  Cao Cao was a multitalented man; his criticism of Sun Tzu's art of war remain a classic; his administrative skills laid the fundation of the Wei-Jin period; his poetry ushered a new age of literature. 

he actually did. if u have watched han wu da di, han wudi personally led an army of 180,000 when he was old. during this campaign, they build the han memorial hall in the land of xiongnu. of course, that was after the xiongnu were already defeated several times.

but what i am asking is not a han wudi led army vs a cao cao led army but an army under han wudi vs an army under cao cao.

it depends on the general, and han wudi doesn't lack talented generals such as general fok.

icic, in that case, the evaluation would vary.

Well, I have to admit Han Wudi benefitted from an array of brilliant generals  such as Li Guang, Wei Qing, Huo Qubing, Li Guangli, Zhao Chongguo, etc.

For general vs. general evaluation, I would love to hear from your evaluation:

Li Guang (Flying General) vs. Zhang Liao (Cao Cao's Eastern commander near Shou Chun i.e. He Fei)

Wei Qing (Han Wudi's brother in law) vs. Sima Yi (Cao Cao's Zhuge Liang)

Huo Qubing (Western Han military prodigy) vs. Xia Hou Yuan (Cao Cao's Western Commander near Tong Guan)

Li Guangli (Ershi General) vs. Cao Ren (Cao Cao's Central Commander near Fan Cheng)

Zhao Chongguo vs. Zhang He



Edited by poirot
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 22:33

Li Guang (Flying General) vs. Zhang Liao (Cao Cao's Eastern commander near Shou Chun i.e. He Fei) --- Draw

Wei Qing (Han Wudi's brother in law) vs. Sima Yi (Cao Cao's Zhuge Liang) --- Draw

Huo Qubing (Western Han military prodigy) vs. Xia Hou Yuan (Cao Cao's Western Commander near Tong Guan) --- Definitely Huo Qubing, Xia Hou Yuan is brainless

Li Guangli (Ershi General) vs. Cao Ren (Cao Cao's Central Commander near Fan Cheng) --- Li Guangli, Cao Ren is also brainless

Zhao Chongguo vs. Zhang He

Can you write Chinese for these two? I am not sure who ur talking about. I suck at ping ying. Isn't Zhang He from the Ming dynasty?

I personally think Han Wudi got better generals.

Cao Cao got a lot of brainless but physically strong generals. Han Wudi's generals, on the other hand, are better strategists in term of leading an army. Han Wudi's army is also better at adaptation as they had to fight in the steppe with nomads while Cao Cao's army mainly fought in China proper and would have to move from city to city.



Edited by Sino Defender
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 22:59

Contrary, Cao Cao did have some brainy generals.  The impression that Cao Cao had only brainless brutes comes from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which does not entirely tell the historical truth.

Cao Ren, for example, was a very excellent general and strategist.  However, in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, his talents are played down to emphasize those of Guan Yu. 

The same applies for Xiahou Yuan.  Cao Cao did not give Xiahou Yuan the important post of guarding the western frontier because he was a brute.  The Romance of the Three Kingdoms portrays Xia Houyuan as a brainless brute to highlight Huang Zhong's bravery and talent.

Zhang Liao was known for both bravery and excellent command.

Zhang He, who is best known to RTK readers for his tragic death at the hands of Zhuge Liang (trapped and shot by arrows), was better known by contemporaies for his deep respect for confucian scholars (check Chen Shou's San Guo Zhi)  Contrary to his brute image in the Romance of Three Kingdoms, the real Zhang He was a scholarly general.

AE policies do not allow posting in Chinese outside of the foreign language forum

Zhang He - Zhang as in Zhang Fei, He = ren, ko, er

Zhao Chong Guo - Zhao as in Zhao Yun, Chong as in Chong Jun, Guo as in country



Edited by poirot
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 23:23
Originally posted by poirot

Contrary, Cao Cao did have some brainy generals.  The impression that Cao Cao had only brainless brutes comes from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which does not entirely tell the historical truth.

Cao Ren, for example, was a very excellent general and strategist.  However, in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, his talents are played down to emphasize those of Guan Yu. 

The same applies for Xiahou Yuan.  Cao Cao did not give Xiahou Yuan the important post of guarding the western frontier because he was a brute.  The Romance of the Three Kingdoms portrays Xia Houyuan as a brainless brute to highlight Huang Zhong's bravery and talent.

Zhang Liao was known for both bravery and excellent command.

Zhang He, who is best known to RTK readers for his tragic death at the hands of Zhuge Liang (trapped and shot by arrows), was better known by contemporaies for his deep respect for confucian scholars (check Chen Shou's San Guo Zhi)  Contrary to his brute image in the Romance of Three Kingdoms, the real Zhang He was a scholarly general.

AE policies do not allow posting in Chinese outside of the foreign language forum

Zhang He - Zhang as in Zhang Fei, He = ren, ko, er

Zhao Chong Guo - Zhao as in Zhao Yun, Chong as in Chong Jun, Guo as in country

it's ok just to post once to clarify. it's not like ur posting a sentence in chinese but just some names. i still have no idea. i am really bad with mandarin ping ying.

i know the "chan" last name, but what about "he"? still has no idea what "he" is. or can u tell me what it literally means?

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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 23:31
R vs. i
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 23:52
come on guys. are you bored? They cannt be compared, although I voted Cao Cao will win. Cao Cao had to face two very brilliant enemies. But Han Wu only had to deal with  uncivilised military hord.
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 00:00

Originally posted by poirot

R vs. i

i have never heard of R

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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 00:04

Here is a note on Zhao Chongguo from Ban Gu, author of Hou Han Shu.

http://www.shulu.net/gd/hs/082.htm

Another note on General Zhao, more modern Chinese

http://iebar.t2t2.com/test1.htm



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