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Loknar View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: An example of what not to do/The rules o
    Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 18:42

Mod Note:  This started off as a perfectly good thread, but quickly went spiraling to hell because of misconduct by a number of our members.  Take this as an example of what not to do.



Koguryo was quite powerful. I once read that its standing army numbered about 50,000 and could expand to 300,000. Supposedly it was a heavily militarized society. At its height is controlled half of the peninsula as well as much of Manchuria.

When Shilla and China (I forget the Dynasty) attacked Bakjae, why wouldnԤͤ Koguryo come to its aid? Certainly they had to know Shilla and China would then come after them next.

Finally, after Bekjae fell, what did Kogyruo do to defend it self?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 21:12

Yungaesomun's brother and sons fought for power.. and the 2 losers took territory and each gave to Tang and Silla.. thats pretty big..

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 22:26
Like I/eye said, after Yeon Gaesomun's death there was a large power struggle within the nation among his relatives which destabilized the nation.  Before Yeon Gaesomun as Daedaero had ruled Goguryeo with an iron fist with the king as little more than a puppet.  The power vacuum that ensued wreaked havoc on the political stage.

In terms of the actual invasion Goguryeo was usually able to stand up to both Shilla and Tang/Sui on in one on one wars.  The last war was starkly  different though.  That time around Goguryeo had to fight a two front war, with Tang in the west/north and Shilla in the south.  Even mighty Germany in WWI and WWII wasn't able to stand up to a two front war. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 00:25
really as to what source that might have brought this information, could you justify your infos with a backup evidence please. i mean such a spot on answer you come up with is some what kind of bias as you what you said, "In terms of the actual invasion Goguryeo was usually able to stand up to both Shilla and Tang/Sui on in one on one wars. "

Edited by intem
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 00:49
Originally posted by Loknar

Koguryo was quite powerful. I once read that its standing army numbered about 50,000 and could expand to 300,000. Supposedly it was a heavily militarized society. At its height is controlled half of the peninsula as well as much of Manchuria.

When Shilla and China (I forget the Dynasty) attacked Bakjae, why wouldnt Koguryo come to its aid? Certainly they had to know Shilla and China would then come after them next.

Finally, after Bekjae fell, what did Kogyruo do to defend it self?

under chinese standards, koguryo was not powerful at all. the tang army was consisted of over a million well-trained and experienced soldiers and could expand to several millions probably if needed, and at its height, it controlled a vast area of china proper, manchuria, mongolia, central asia, and vietnam. its power stretched all the way into the middle east.

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 01:29
Originally posted by intem

really as to what source that might have brought this information, could you justify your infos with a backup evidence please. i mean such a spot on answer you come up with is some what kind of bias as you what you said, "In terms of the actual invasion Goguryeo was usually able to stand up to both Shilla and Tang/Sui on in one on one wars. "


Here's the quickest source that I can pull up, it's from wiki and it gives some interesting insights on why Goguryeo fell. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo

"

Goguryeo-Sui Wars

In 598 the Sui Dynasty of China, provoked by Goguryeo military offensives in the Liaodong region, attacked Goguryeo in the first of the Goguryeo-Sui Wars. In this campaign, as with those that followed in 612, 613, and 614, Sui met with defeat. These costly and disastrous engagements contributed significantly to the fall of the Sui Dynasty in 618.

The campaign of 598 also provided Goguryeo, and modern Korea, with one of its great national heros: the general Eulji Mundeok, who led the Sui troops into a trap outside of Pyongyang, ensuring their retreat during which they were decimated. Chinese histories record that of the over 300,000 Sui troops that crossed into Goguryeo in 598, less than 3,000 returned to China.

Silla-Tang invasion

Although Koguryo had been strong enough to repulse the forces of the Sui Dynasty, combined attacks by Silla from the south and the Tang Dynasty of China (618-907) from the west proved too formidable.

A combination of bad weather and flawed strategy meant Tang's first attempts under the personal leadership of Emperor Gaozu proved inconclusive.

Under Gaozu's successor Taizong, Tang forged an alliance with Goguryeo's rival Silla. This, combined with Goguryeo's increasing political instability following the 642 murder of its king Yeongnyu at the hands of the military strongman Yeon Gaesomun, proved the kingdom's undoing.

When Yeon Gaesomun rejected negotiations with Silla, Silla was forced to look to its ties with Tang. In 645, Tang led an attack against Goguryeo. Goguryeo was able to repel the attack at Ansiseong, but the attacks continued, weakening Goguryeos defenses.

Goguryo's ally in the southwest, Baekje, fell to the Silla-Tang alliance in 660; the victorious allies continued their assault on Goguryo for the next eight years and eventually vanquished the weary kingdom, which had been suffering from a series of famines and internal strife. In 665, Yeon Gaesomun of Goguryeo died and civil war ensued between his three sons. This greatly contributed to the kingdom's weakness as it faced its gravest challenge. Goguryeo was finally overthrown by the Silla-Tang alliance, in 668.

Silla thus unified Korea in 668, but the kingdom's reliance on China's Tang Dynasty had its price. Eventually Silla had to forcibly resist the imposition of Chinese rule over the entire peninsula, which Silla's rulers did, but their strength did not extend beyond the Taedong River. Following Goguryeo's fall, some of its populace relocated north to form a part of the future kingdom of Balhae. Tang initially attempted to set up a military occupational government in Goguryeo's stead, but this did not last. The southern portion of the ertwhile Goguryeo territory was claimed by Silla, while the rest was succeeded by the kingdom of Balhae."


I don't know why it bothers you that Goguryeo fended off some Tang/Sui attacks. 

According to the Wiki article it seems that Goguryeo was also suffering from famines.  Food production was a major issue with Goguryeo ever since its conception as a result of its relatively infertile lands.  This disabilty to feed its people led to many of its military excursions including raids on the Lolang Commandery and it's absorption of Okjeo.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 01:33
Originally posted by Sino Defender

under chinese standards, koguryo was not powerful at all. the tang army was consisted of over a million well-trained and experienced soldiers and could expand to several millions probably if needed, and at its height, it controlled a vast area of china proper, manchuria, mongolia, central asia, and vietnam. its power stretched all the way into the middle east.



Tang China was indeed very powerful, although its hold on the modern Donbei region was a bit brief.  Tang had to be strong though, it was surrounded by many enemies including the Koreans, Uyghurs, Tibetans, and the Arabs. 

Could I ask you for your source on the 7 million man army?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 09:32
Originally posted by Gubook Janggoon

Originally posted by Sino Defender

under chinese standards, koguryo was not powerful at all. the tang army was consisted of over a million well-trained and experienced soldiers and could expand to several millions probably if needed, and at its height, it controlled a vast area of china proper, manchuria, mongolia, central asia, and vietnam. its power stretched all the way into the middle east.



Tang China was indeed very powerful, although its hold on the modern Donbei region was a bit brief.  Tang had to be strong though, it was surrounded by many enemies including the Koreans, Uyghurs, Tibetans, and the Arabs. 

Could I ask you for your source on the 7 million man army?

tang's army was consisted of over a million well-trained and experienced soldiers stationed across the empire. i mean in the time of war, its population could easily expand its manpower to several millions as that was the avialibility of manpower based on its vast population.

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 13:50

Yo, Sino, I think Gubook Janggoon has won this battle.  You asked for his source and he btch-slapped you with most elementary source in the net.  And when he asked for your source, all you could do was repeat yourself.  But it's alright, I do admire your national pride.  Just to remind you though, it not the Koreans you should feel bitter towards.  It's  not the Koreans who did the Rape fo Nanking or Unit 731, baby.  It's not the Korean architects who tried to sneak in Japanese flag symbolism into new World Financial Center design in Shanghai.  All Asians have commom pain  and common enemy in our blood, and it doesn' t spell out Korea, come on.  Direct your frustration/anger to where it belong.

And for Gubook Janggoon, I remember reading a book about a General named Go Seon Ji when I was a child.  The way I remember he was a Koguryeo refugee became a great general under Tang dynasty and led Tang's expansion towards west, possibly going over Himalayas and even reached India and Persia.  What do you know about this?  If I'm right, how important was Go Seon Ji in Tang's history? Did they call him by different name?  You seems like the man to ask.  Keep up the good work, bro!    

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 15:17

Originally posted by King Kang of Lemuria

it not the Koreans you should feel bitter towards.  It's  not the Koreans who did the Rape fo Nanking or Unit 731, baby.  It's not the Korean architects who tried to sneak in Japanese flag symbolism into new World Financial Center design in Shanghai. 

we never felt bitter to anybody, including japs. they could do those things because they were stronger, it's normal. it's also normal that we are going to do some similar things to them in the future. lol. now they are lucky their daddy american is still here. but daddy can't protect you forever. lol.

as for korea, it's not you didn't want to do so, it's you were not able to do so.



Edited by sinosword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 18:47
Originally posted by sinosword

Originally posted by King Kang of Lemuria

it not the Koreans you should feel bitter towards.  It's  not the Koreans who did the Rape fo Nanking or Unit 731, baby.  It's not the Korean architects who tried to sneak in Japanese flag symbolism into new World Financial Center design in Shanghai. 

we never felt bitter to anybody, including japs. they could do those things because they were stronger, it's normal. it's also normal that we are going to do some similar things to them in the future. lol. now they are lucky their daddy american is still here. but daddy can't protect you forever. lol.

as for korea, it's not you didn't want to do so, it's you were not able to do so.


It's wonderful(?) post..
Is that your understanding about History or  average Chinese one?
Do you live in a Jungle ? As long as  i know, china is also one of the civilized countries and the chinese are also sophisticated.  am i wrong?
i wish what you said would be only your own opinion....
GO korea go!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 18:52
Originally posted by King Kang of Lemuria

Yo, Sino, I think Gubook Janggoon has won this battle.  You asked for his source and he btch-slapped you with most elementary source in the net.  And when he asked for your source, all you could do was repeat yourself.  But it's alright, I do admire your national pride.  Just to remind you though, it not the Koreans you should feel bitter towards.  It's  not the Koreans who did the Rape fo Nanking or Unit 731, baby.  It's not the Korean architects who tried to sneak in Japanese flag symbolism into new World Financial Center design in Shanghai.  All Asians have commom pain  and common enemy in our blood, and it doesn' t spell out Korea, come on.  Direct your frustration/anger to where it belong.

And for Gubook Janggoon, I remember reading a book about a General named Go Seon Ji when I was a child.  The way I remember he was a Koguryeo refugee became a great general under Tang dynasty and led Tang's expansion towards west, possibly going over Himalayas and even reached India and Persia.  What do you know about this?  If I'm right, how important was Go Seon Ji in Tang's history? Did they call him by different name?  You seems like the man to ask.  Keep up the good work, bro!    

i didn't ask for his sources. for any dynasties or even fedual states in china, an army of over a million men is quite usual. the battle of red cliff was already involved with over a million men, and that was just one battle.

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 18:58
Originally posted by interap008

Originally posted by sinosword

Originally posted by King Kang of Lemuria

it not the Koreans you should feel bitter towards.  It's  not the Koreans who did the Rape fo Nanking or Unit 731, baby.  It's not the Korean architects who tried to sneak in Japanese flag symbolism into new World Financial Center design in Shanghai. 

we never felt bitter to anybody, including japs. they could do those things because they were stronger, it's normal. it's also normal that we are going to do some similar things to them in the future. lol. now they are lucky their daddy american is still here. but daddy can't protect you forever. lol.

as for korea, it's not you didn't want to do so, it's you were not able to do so.


It's wonderful(?) post..
Is that your understanding about History or  average Chinese one?
Do you live in a Jungle ? As long as  i know, china is also one of the civilized countries and the chinese are also sophisticated.  am i wrong?
i wish what you said would be only your own opinion....

the standards for being civilized, and the world order are based upon power. whoever has the power, whoever has the say. yes, even today, many chinese consider korea as a small asian country between major powers. and to many chinese, the japanese who do not recognize their past war crimes or try to make what they did in ww2 legitimate are to be punished. such a punishment might not be carried out in the way of war, but economically, politically, or socially.

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 19:12

Originally posted by interap008

It's wonderful(?) post..
Is that your understanding about History or  average Chinese one?
Do you live in a Jungle ? As long as  i know, china is also one of the civilized countries and the chinese are also sophisticated.  am i wrong?
i wish what you said would be only your own opinion....

this world is a big jungle indeed. i just said the truth, no need to be hypocritical.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 19:26
I think it's important that we lay down some guide rules here.

Welcome to AE, if you're new, and it's good to see you, if you've been here awhile.

I am sick and tired of the ethnic hate and slurs that have been going around this particular corner of AE.

1.  As tempting as using "jap" as a short way to write Japanese is, it's an offensive term on par with "gook" and "chink".  These words are not allowed, especially in this forum.

2.  I've been nice about racial slurs in the past, but from now on, any such use of these will get you immediatly reported to the administration.  That means you sinosword, no more calling other people "Neurotic Mongols".

3.  I don't know how you guys were raised, but there is a certain level of civility that is expected from the members here.  There will be no insulting of each other.  Attack the argument, not the person.  This regards interap008, sinosword, and king kang.  There are no points in a discussion.  Both parties are here to learn from one another.

4.  This applies mostly to you intem.  If you have any more complaints about the conduct of the moderators in this forum, please write a PM to the administration.  I assure, any misconduct on the part of staff will be handled in the appropriate manner in the Moderator Forum. 

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