Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Problem with MS408

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
arsenka View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 27-Nov-2005
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 104
  Quote arsenka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Problem with MS408
    Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 06:12

 Recently I've come across a very interesting link that puzzled me greately. Here is it:

www.voynich.nu/

Quote:

"In 1912, the antiquarian book dealer Wilfrid M. Voynich bought a number of mediaeval manuscripts from an undisclosed location in Europe. Among these was an illustrated manuscript codex of 234 pages, written in an unknown script.

Voynich took the MS to the United States and started a campaign to have it deciphered. Now, almost 100 years later, the Voynich manuscript still stands as probably the most elusive puzzle in the world of cryptography. Not a single word of this 'Most Mysterious Manuscript', written probably in the second half of the 15th Century, can be understood.

Marci Attached to the manuscript was a letter in Latin dated 1666 from Johannes Marcus Marci of Kronland, once rector of the Charles University of Prague, to the learned Jesuit Athanasius Kircher in Rome, offering the manuscript for decryption and mentioning that it had once been bought by Emperor Rudolf II of Bohemia (1552-1612) for 600 gold ducats. The letter further mentioned that it was believed that the author of the MS was Roger Bacon (the Franciscan friar who lived from 1214 to 1294).

Another early owner of the MS was identified by Voynich when, on the lower margin of the first folio, under special illumination, the erased signature of Jacobus de Tepenec was found. Tepenec was one of Rudolf's private physicians and the director of his botanical gardens and he must have owned the manuscript between 1608, when he received his title "de Tepenec", and 1622, when he died. The MS has changed hands sevetal times, and despite some minor gaps in our knowledge its path from the court of Rudolf to its final resting place, the Beinecke Rare book library of Yale University, can be traced fairly accurately.

The MS became famous when, in the 1920's, William Romaine Newbold proposed a spectacular decipherment with which he meant to prove that it was indeed written by Roger Bacon, and that Bacon had not only dreamt of, but actually built microscopes and telescopes. When this 'solution' of the MS was disproven by John M. Manly in 1931, the MS gradually became a pariah in world of mediaeval studies. In the 1940's and 1960's the eminent cryptanalyst William F. Friedman made several valiant attempts at deciphering the MS, aided by groups of experts, but also he did not find any solution."

I'm not specialist at the field it concerns but I'm deadly curious about this problem. I've been trying to decipher MS 408 too but unsuccessfully. On AE we have people speaking all possible languages (or almost so) - may be anyone could do it or give some useful advice.

Still puzzled

Arsenka

PS: Maybe it's just sort of fake? What do you think? 

arsenka
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 07:25
Alphabet looks Armenian...

Eastern Armenian alphabet

Eastern Armenian alphabet

Western Armenian alphabet

Western Armenian alphabet

Armenian punctuation

Armenian punctuation



NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 02:22
Found it!!!

It's Agrippa's Theban Angelic Script.

It's an esotheric script of Agrippa's creation and can be transcribes directly into Latin script, letter by letter.



See:

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 02:29
I think not: I was comparing from memmory.  

Ehm... what about Ge'ez (ancient Ethiopian), also in that table above?

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Decebal View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Digital Prometheus

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1791
  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 18:57
I think that it is an invented script. I remember reading about it, and the article said that the alphabet doesn't appear to be associated with any used alphabet. I think a lot of cryptologists have worked on this document: they wouldn't have missed something like that.
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

Back to Top
arsenka View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 27-Nov-2005
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 104
  Quote arsenka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 03:52

THat's not the new question, I know, but that's challenging.

"I think that it is an invented script."

 Me too. It'd be much worse if it were written in an invented language.  And it's hardly probable, I think. I have some ideas on the point. May be I'm wrong, I don't know.

Admitting this MS isn't pure fake (one can't  exclude this possibility also) we should admit it was supposed to be used by some secluded group of people - maybe monastic brethern or anything else. > MS must have been written in a language familiar to them. That's easier to suppose that MS's readers were given some key to MS's cypher (if they were allowed to read it) rather than that they were taught some new language invented especially for this MS's sake. (If this MS weren't the only document written in this new language somebody somewhere somehow must have heard about it; and nobody did as far as I know )

Thus, with high level of probability the language should be usual: Latin, Greek, Arab, Hebrew or anything else. That's written in an invented script. > Every invented letter means the particular letter of some language really existing. > Logically considering it can be deciphered.

My problem is that I'm not too strong in the languages abovementioned. That's why I'm asking for the help of our multilingual society.

Maju, I appreciate your messages greatly, though I don't think it's Ge'ez. You've pushed me against some ideas that didn't occur to me before. Remember Eco: "Let's guess at first what kind the book we are looking for should be of."

arsenka
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10112
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2017 at 10:09
It's been 11 years since this thread started, and there is still no positive answer to the mystery.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 699
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2018 at 01:56

I'm not very familiar with this topic and have only had a brief light look at it so far. At present i have onl had a look at general introductory material and reference articles. It seems that i can't offer any certain opinion unless/until i am able to look through all the pages of the Voynich Manuscript itself. I can't necessarily yet offer any answer to the "code" decipherment. The only thing i have to post so far is a first impression tentative opinion on what the author or date of creation of the manuscript.

This is only a very tentative and may be wrong but after my first study it seems to me that the person (or one of the persons) that the book seems most likely to have been written by is Jacob Horcicky "Sinapius" de Tepenec. The reasons for this are:

Voynich Ms: claimed to have been in Rudolf's library.
Jacob Sinapius: was a courtier of Rudolf's.

Voynich MS: has main sections on herbs, astronomy, zodiacal, cosmology, recepies, biology, pharmacy. (Has pictures of plants.)
Jacob Sinapius: was Imperial Distiller, curator of botanical gardens, personal physician, and chemist/pharmacist, and a tradition claims he cured Rudolf from a grave disease (though this last one may be apocryphal). (Alternatively, Mnis(h)ovsky's first name Raphael means "God heals", and he was a Dr and a tutor at a university.)
He must have been able to read it at least?

Voynich Ms: faded name of Jacob's on 1st folio of the manuscript is maybe like a signature of the author?
This has counter-criticisms though: They say he signed using the noble form which means after 1608 (though this is before the end of Rudolf's reign in 1611/2). They say several books he owed have similar form of his signature accompanied by a number (which is also found in the Voynich ms one too), and they are all similarily faded.
Moreover i guess they have probably already checked to see if the handwriting is similar to that/those of the book.
(Though they say the signatiure of his in the Voynich Ms doesn't match the signature of his in another document.)
If the signature is genuine then none of the owners after him coulds have written the (whole) book (only parts possibly).

Voynich Ms: has Latin and Hebrew-like aspects?
Jacob Sinapius: has Latin and Hebrew-origin names.

Voynich Ms: Pelzer's opinion was that the book is from late 16th or early 17th century, and from Czechoslovakia or Poland. De Ricci thought it was from "Central Europe", and Yale Uni catalogue also says written "in Central Europe" (with a question mark). (Two people also thought it was German (Salomon) or from Germany (Panofsky). Toresella though it was from Italy.)
Jacob Sinapius: his coutier and nobility dates are 1607/1608-11/1622, and he was in Prague/Bohemia?
(Bohemia was part of Holy Roman Empire which was roughly same as kingdom of Germany. Italy was also part of the HRE and not really thatfar from Bohemia?)

Voynich Ms: Why did Rudolf give Jacob the book?

Voynich Ms: The zodiacal and astronomical info in the book might possibly help to find what the place and time of the books writing was?

Voynich Ms: There is no strong proof for any origins before 1600 (no real proof of link with Bacon or Dee). Jacob is the most likely of all the main candidates.
Carbon dating doesn't necessarily prove anything because carbon dating has been proven to be unreliable eg material in Sekhemkhet's buried pyramid complex dates 600 years old than his orthodox Egyptological date [which latter is itself also about 600 years old than his real date ca 1800s bc]. Radiometric dating depends on rates/speeds being uniforimatrian, and can be effected by somethings, and material that humans use might be use many years later than the material originated in natural world.

Voynich Ms: called "Sphynx/Sphinx".
Jacob Sinapius: called "Sinapius". (Oedipus means "swollen foot", Jacobus means "heel catcher" and he limped. Thebes is similar to Tepenec. Oedipus awarded kingship, Sinapius was awarded nobility.)
Compare: Codex Seraphinianus created by L Serafini "in a style reminiscent of the Voynich Manuscript"?
(Though the name is also/alternatively abit like Sebuzinet and/or Beckx? The sphinx is female and together with "widows share" it might suggest a woman? The harlot Babylon in 'Revelation' is also a "widow". Though the answer to sphinx's riddle was "man"?)

The 1666 (and 1999) and 600 ducats and 18 quires (3 x 6) of course smacks of 666 and Solomon's 666 talents and Newton and 1656 yrs preflood. But not sure if or what significance is re answer of question of the origin of the book.

http://www.maryjones.us/jce/nennius_alphabet.html

Here is a rough draft timeline i compiled from sources:

11th cent - 1229 Cathars.
1229 Codex Gigas / Devil's Bible (records)
1214-1294 R Bacon, Franciscan friar, polymath, English (suspected author, letter)
late 14th-15th cents (lettering resembles)
1404-1438 (carbon dated)
1460s Alberti inveted polyalphabetical ciphers
15th cent A Averlino 'Filarete', architect, N Italian (proposed writer)
New World species in drawings not seen in Europe before 1493?
15th cent. LMIH / Badianus Ms, Aztec
1521-1576 ms dated to by Tucker & Talbert
1550 A Ascham
c 1550 Cardigan grille perforated paper overlay invented
1599 K Widemann sold books to Rudolf 2.
c1600 J Dee, mathematician & astrologer, Prague (son remembers, ms handwriting, Bk of Soyga, known to have owned a large collection of Bacon's mss, diaries not mention it).
Ed Kelly, spirit medium of Dee
1552/76-1611/2 HRE Rudolf 2 of Habsburg, Prague (letter)
1607/1608-11/1622 Jacob Horcicky 'Sinapius' a/de Tepenec, Imperial Distiller, curator of botanical gardens, personal physician and courtier of Rudolf, hauptman/governor, Melnik (faded name on 1st folio of ms)
Unknown / D Misseroni / G Barschius, intimate friend of Marci (former owner, letter)?
c1618 Dr R Mnis(h)ovsky Sebuzinet de Horstein, tutor, cryptographer, friend of Marci (said/believed book, letter)
Andreas Mueller played similar hoax on Kirchir.
1639-1646/1662 M G Baresch/Barschius, alchemist, friend of Marci, Prague (sent ms copies of "Sphynx", letters)
1639/1640/1641 Kirchir, friend of Marci (letters)
1665 JM Marci of Cronland, scientist, friend of Baresch/Kirchir/Mnishovsky, rector Charles Uni, Prague, Bohemia (letter)
1665 A Kirchir, Jesuit, Collegio Romano, Rome (sent ms copies, letter)
GA Kinner, friend of Kirchir (asked K. if deciphered the book)
Fr P P/J Beckx (acquired as part of collection of bks & ms all labeled as from library of)?
 Villa Torlonia, Castel Gandolfo?
1873-1912 Mondragone, Frascati, Rome (list of bks for sale published)?
In/after 1911 Baer of Frankfurt showed Voynich ms to C Singer?
1904-1969 T de Marinis
1912-1921-1930 WM Voynich, Polish, Florence, London, US (acquired ms)
1921/1928 WR Newbold, Uni of Penns
1921/1931 JM Manly
1930-1960 EL Voynich, author, widow of W Voynich (inheritied ms) ["widow's share" written in the book?]
1932-1934-1954 Dr E Panofsky, art historian (ms origin theory)
1936 R Salomon, medieval history scholar (ms origin theory)
1936 A Nill quoted Salomon
1937 De Ricci (ms origin theory)
1940s WF Friedman (cryptographer)
1943 JM Feely (claimed bk is a scientific diary in shorthand)
TC Petersen, Catholic Uni, Washington (photostats/copy, hand transcription)
1950(s) WF Friedman asked Brig J Tiltman to analyse pages of the text
1953 Mgr Pelzer (ms origin theory)
1959 Mgr J Ruysschaert (published list of books)
1960-1961 AM Nill (ms left to, sold book)
1961-1969 HP Kraus (bk sold to, donated ms)
1962 E Friedman (cryptanalyst)
1967 Brig Tiltman (analysis revealed cumbersome mixture of different kinds of substitution)
1969-2018 Beinecke Lib, Yale Uni, US (ms donated to, catalogue)
1976 JR Child, NSA (proposed ms is unknown N German dialect)
1978 RS Brumbaugh (claim ms forgery)
1978 ME d'Imperio
1978-1991 J Stojko (claim ms series letters)
1987 L Levitov (proposed ms is Cathar handbook)
1991 Stokjo's theory caused some sensation in Ukraine
1999 discovery of Baresch's letter
2001 G Landini
2001 Reddy
2003 copy of signature located by J Hurych located doesnt match
2003-2016 G Rugg, computer scientist
2004 J Stolfi
2004 Scientific American atricle
2004 G Kennedy & R Churchill (suggest bk may be cas of tongues/channeling)
2006-2014 N Pelling (proposed ms written by Filarete)
2007 A Schinner, Austrian researcher (study supported hoax hypothesis)
2009 Uni of Arizona (carbon dates samples of parts of ms)
2009 (spectrography performed)
2009 J Schuster
2009 Knight
2011 Reddy & Knight
2013 M Montemurro, physicist, Uni of Manchester (findings in ms text)
2013 Montemurro & Zanette
2013/2014 Dr D Amancio, IMCS, Uni of SP (analyse relationships of words in text)
2013/2014 AO Tucker & RH Talbert (identify plants in the text)
2014 (protein testing).
2014 multispectral images taken not show any signs of previous writing
2014-2017 Prof S Bax, Uni of Bedford (claim ms is treatise on nature)
2015 Hannah Lash commissioned by New Haven Symphony Orchestra to compose symphony imspired my the ms.
2015/2016 R Zandbergen (Voynich website)
2016 G Rugg & G Taylor
2017 E Duffy
2017 N Gibbs (claim decoded ms)
2017 Siloe (print replicas)
2018 Prof G Kondrak, Uni of Alberta (analysed ms).



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 01-Feb-2018 at 00:07
In 2017-2018 elite criminals fluoridated my delivered food as well as forcing fluoridated tap water on me causing brain parts hindrance. (They did it because i exposed certain lies & agendas.)
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 699
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2018 at 16:07
It looks like two thirds of the book is just on plants/herbs/vegetables?

1-7 all plants/herbs (except for 1 page not load?)
8 plants/herbs except for 1 page picture & 3 pages text?
9-12
13
14
15-19 all plants/veges (except for side stands?)
20 all asterisked text (recipes?)

http://www.voynich.nu/folios.html

Seems to support the Jacob the gardener theory?
The sections of more interest are 9-14 and 20?



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 02-Feb-2018 at 16:09
In 2017-2018 elite criminals fluoridated my delivered food as well as forcing fluoridated tap water on me causing brain parts hindrance. (They did it because i exposed certain lies & agendas.)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.