Ethnic Cleansing of Macedonia

Originally posted by Bashibozuk The fire, which started in Basmane Quarter, was started by Greeks leaving the city after the victory of the Turkish national independence army.

Ok, if you search the forum for "Smyrna - fire" you'll find previous posts. More or less the Greek point is that Turk irregulars (Chets?) who entered the city first started the fire, under orders and plan from Turkish authorities/army. This is supported also by American missionaries in the city. I'm certain that Turks have a different opinion...

On the other hand no-one can suggest that people running for their lives, had the time or the coll-head needed to materialize such a plan. Greeks leaving the area had the idea that they were going away for a short time, until things settle down and return later. My grandmother didn't burn her house when she left, instead she cleaned it, took some clothes along, hid her jewelry, locked her door and took the key with her (we still have it).

My grandmother didn't burn her house when she left

But it depends. Of course a regular "local" wouldn't burn the house, but the invasion army definately would.

Do you know that those muslims pass in the place of people that actually wrote in exams more

I know everything about them, don't worry. I've been to Iske�e and saw the real picture myself. And please rephrase your statements after you calm down with a better grammer, because I really couldn't get anything from it.

on the other hand the act of ethnic cleansing undertaken by the greek regime in 1913 had as a purpose to assimilate or cleanse the slavic presence in the region

Interesting that we mention 'ethnic cleansing' but only mention it on one side.. What happened to those known as VRMO, you know the murderers that went under the banner with a scull and crossbones.. appropriate symbol once you think of what they did..

If we are to discuss this issue it must be based on real facts and no propaganda sites.. For example, why is there absolutely no reference of the Austrian and Russian role in the events from 1860-1960,
why is there no reference to mama-Russia's dreams of a 'united Makedonia' and a 'united Thrace' that would give her access to the Aegean,
why is there no reference to the direct orders seen in the Plenary conference of the International Communist organizations of the Balkans that demanded the formation of these 'united nations' under the supervision of mama-Russia,
why is there absolutely no reference to the well proven fact that Hellines of Serres and the surrounding villages, asked the Ottomans to save them and actually acted as their informants in order to save themselves from the continuous Bulgarian raids on their villages,....
why is there no reference to June 28. 1913, when after their defeat the Bulgarian army while fleeing, burnt down 4050 houses and 1076 stores in the city of Serres,
and a number of other issues, your sources fail to mention ???

Another interesting little thing I noticed, is while you present a pic of "Bulgarian captives at Kilkis" in order to support your claims of ethnic cleansing. You conveniently didn't notice that they are all wearing military uniforms... which actually indicates that they were most probably part of the VRMO murderers..

Around 35,000 Chams were expelled from Greece after World War II after being accused of collaboration with the Nazi occupation, they say.They were given Albanian citizenship in 1953.

Actually the Albanian sources speak of some 18.000 but anyway, it is well documented that they fled for their lives after collaborating with the Italians during their invasion and the Germans during the occupation.. In either way, fled or expelled, high treason is punished by death.. so I'd say we were highly generous to allow them to escape with their lives..
Do keep in mind that they were Hellinic citizens, so their ethnicity is actually indifferent to the discussion..

In either example (and FYROM as an addition), I find it at least interesting to note that other countries, for some reason enjoy making claims on Hellinic lands instead of leaving history behind them and trying to actually prosper in cooperation with a country that has done more than any other for their integration into the Western community (see EU and NATO)..

Edited by Isokrates

VMORO , VRMO... whats the difference, should we also mention that it originally started off as BMARC (Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committee) (others suggest BMORC with the 'O' standing for  'Odrin') ??
The names may be slightly different to eachother, but he cause remained exactly the same. As mentioned above..

Originally posted by Bashibozuk Do you know that those muslims pass in the place of people that actually wrote in exams more I know everything about them, don't worry. I've been to Iske�e and saw the real picture myself. And please rephrase your statements after you calm down with a better grammer, because I really couldn't get anything from it.

 First of all, i don't give a wooden nidle about the history in that topic, I am here to talk about the morden times. And i also believe that turks souldn't really cry about ethic cleansing etc.

 Second  "dude" what in the nice hells of Baator is Iskene????? If you have actually been in Greece i would expect to write the greek name (the true one) of that city.

 Second you know all about them? Oh RLY? When you was last here? In 1963-1974 ????? Let me tell you somethink i have been also in Alexandroupolis, Ksanthi and Komotini. The real picture isn't worst from other areas in the Greek statement. If there is lack in some areas is because of their lazinest. If they want factories to work then i sujest to stop pay the girls there 100 euro per month in order to wear that ungly think on their heads (i really, really don't care how you call it) and with those money in 5 years they will make a good factory. But no they just want to say :" We are muslims. allah will rain food,women and money".

 Also you claim that greek goverment don't tolarate them well? I challenge you to give me an example. But wait a minute they are in greek parliament, right? What about that filphy greek law that let them to enter  easiests in greek univercities?? Didn't you knew that?? If that fair for the other greeks?? And what's the excuse??? They don't know well the greek languadge and they are NOT INTEREST TO ENTER IN UNIVERCITIES. Got it "dude" or you need better grammar to understant it?.

 I enjoy good propagnda because it need skill to turn it down. But filphy and stupit propaganda as your it makes me just furrius....

Originally posted by Isokrates VMORO , VRMO... whats the difference, should we also mention that it originally started off as BMARC (Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committee) (others suggest BMORC with the 'O' standing for  'Odrin') ?? The names may be slightly different to eachother, but he cause remained exactly the same. As mentioned above..

Actually, VMRO has had many names, which even I don't remember! But the one you're speaking of is an entirely different organization. Let's try to structurize the different spellings at least:
Bulgarian spelling | English spelling
VMK (Varhoven Makedonski Komitet) | SMC (Supreme Macedonian Comittee) - established on the 19th of March 1895 in Sofia.
VMOK (Varhoven Makedono-Odrinski Komitet) | SMAC (Supreme Macedonian-Adrianople Comittee) - VMK/SMC expands to VMOK/SMAC in 1900.
---
VMORO (Vatreshna Makedono-Odrinska Revolucionna Organizacia) | IMARO (Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization) - established on the 23rd of October 1893 in Macedonia.
VMRO (Vatreshna Makedonska Revolucionna Organizacia) | IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization) - after WWI VMORO/IMARO becomes VMRO/IMRO and changes its policy to a great degree. It becomes a political-terroristic organization, which sows terror in Sofia in political fight with other Bulgarian parties.

These two organizations (VMOK and VMORO) are two completely separate organizations and in fact often fought between each other. They had also two different goals - VMOK wanted to join Macedonia and Adrianople Thrace directly to Bulgaria, while VMORO wanted those territories to gain independence first. After WWI VMRO left its policy to fight the Turks in Macedonia and Adrianople (the latter of which was already lost) and started to interfere in the Bulgarian political life, organizing numerous assassinations of party leaders (including leaders of VMRO itself). So, basically said, in the beginning the goal of both these organizations was to fight for the liberation of Macedonia and Thrace, but in time VMRO became more of a political-terrorist group rather than a liberation movement.

Originally posted by Leonidas I bothered to find out because there is a obvoius inference by BG that greeks were the ones guilty of such big terms like genocide and ethnic cleansing in macedonia.

I think this wasn't his intention. And of course it's stupid to say "... are the only guilty for starting this!" Rivalries and ethnical, religious, political confrontations have always existed on these lands ever since humans started living in them! True, everybody participated, but noone could be blamed to be the starter of it all. So I agree with "The brutal violence was widespread, done by all sides and started before the greeks joined the fray." Actually, I'd say it started when some people came from Asia Minor, but I might offend someone this way, so...

Originally posted by Leonidas BTW i really enjoyed reading something about the bulgarian struggle.

Oh, about what exactly? And unfortunately I have to admit that I know almost nothing about Greek fights. In 12th grade we studied the liberation movements of the Balkan nations, but I remember only just a few things about the Serbian liberation. Oh, and of course there's the end of one novel-tetralogy about Macedonia in those times, written by a contemporary of the Ilinden uprising, Dimitar Talev. The last book concernes the rivalries between Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks in the region. Quite a nice book and even one "Romeo and Juliet"-type story (a Bulgarian boy (the prototype of the author) and a Greek girl between the two rivaling sides)! But I know almost nothing else, the next thing I remember about Greeks are the andartes from WWII...


Edited by NikeBG

 It should be mentioned that when the New Turks came to power in Istanbul,it became clear to all non-Muslims  living in Macedonia that their goal was to assimilate these communities by force.Between 1908-1912 the assasination of priests and christian peasants had become a daily routine.The tortures in Thessalonica was also very widespread.There the Turks tortured those that they regarded suspicious,most of the times smashed their toes with clubs or gauged their eyes and things like that.All these things forced the Bulgarians,the Serbs and the Greeks to form the coalition against the Turks.
The Turkish violence between 1908-1912 was targeted against all non-Muslims,especially against christians of Macedonia. 

 

 

Kosova already largely Albanian.

Until the Serbian occupation began, Kosova was about 75% Albanian. By thye end of the second world war the number dropped due to Serb colonization of the decades before. Most of the Serbs were montenegrin serbs. Following that time Albanians pushed the colonizers out. There was also a large number of Albanians that were removed from Kosova unde rthe guise of being Turks. This happened even in lands that are ALb historically, like Shkodra. They were sent to Turkey.

why did greek army burned half of western anatolia? reason should be  same

Interesting statement when we could present a number of documents and quotes from people that lived it, all making reference to cleansing of the Hellines of Anatolia by Talaat among others..