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European Press shows solidarity with threatened Danish cartoonist

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: European Press shows solidarity with threatened Danish cartoonist
    Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 22:47
Originally posted by Dream208

To Strategos:

By your concept, you can not understand the importance of religion in Muslim culture neither. First, I don't think insults has anything to do with the freedom of press. Second, it is ignorant to assume no one in Muslim world understnad your concept of freedom of speech.

Importance of religion in Muslim culture: Muslim culture seems to be the only and most important thing in their life. They would stone a woman for a petty crime and it is sanctioned under islam.

Obviously not all muslims are totally against the articles. I had made a post about one such journalist in a newspaper in Jordan:

In a separate article, the newspaper's editor, Jihad Momani, urged the world's Muslims to "be reasonable" in their response to the drawings.

The paper's publishers sacked him hours later over the "shock" he had caused, Jordan's official Petra news agency reported.

There are probably many like this, yet do not want to be too outspoken in this hysteria.

You state that you don't think the insult has anything to do with the freedom of the press. They feel insulted that the a picture of Muhammad was drawn. If some muslims can go around blowing up buildings and people, then I am sure we can put some ink on paper and draw Muhammad(yes, this sounds ridiculous).

All it is is hysteria, and people are getting caught up into it.

http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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  Quote Alborz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 22:56
Originally posted by barbar

 

Personnally, I'm a Moslem, but not from a western or a Moslem society.

These discussions give an impression that Most stupid westerners think that the Moslem's can't understand the freedom of speech, as they are not from a democratic society, while ignoring the fact people from a society that lacks freedom cherish freedom more than people from a society that is fully free. 

They are ignorant about Islam, and the diffrence between the cultures. they think "We can press your mother mockingly in naked in our newpaper, because it is our freedom of expression, and you shouldn't be felt offended." While Moslims think that there should be limit for freedom of speech, so that you can't insult other people under the pretex of it.

They also think you can do anything if only you don't physically hurt someone, while Moslims think that what people need not only the pysical comfort, you should also consider their mental comfort. Insulting is different from criticizing.   

They think their freedom of speech is sacred, and people shouldn't raise question about it, while they are insulting someone who Moslims think sacred.

Now I have seen the true face of Westerners.

these were the same people who were barking crazy when Ahmadinezhad said things about haloacaoast

these cartoons aren't freedom of speech, because these are the same kind of offending cartoons that were done by nazis against Jews. whats the difference both were/are showing jews/muslims as evil and terrorists.

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  Quote Boztorgay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 23:02
Originally posted by Alborz

Originally posted by barbar

 

Personnally, I'm a Moslem, but not from a western or a Moslem society.

These discussions give an impression that Most stupid westerners think that the Moslem's can't understand the freedom of speech, as they are not from a democratic society, while ignoring the fact people from a society that lacks freedom cherish freedom more than people from a society that is fully free. 

They are ignorant about Islam, and the diffrence between the cultures. they think "We can press your mother mockingly in naked in our newpaper, because it is our freedom of expression, and you shouldn't be felt offended." While Moslims think that there should be limit for freedom of speech, so that you can't insult other people under the pretex of it.

They also think you can do anything if only you don't physically hurt someone, while Moslims think that what people need not only the pysical comfort, you should also consider their mental comfort. Insulting is different from criticizing.   

They think their freedom of speech is sacred, and people shouldn't raise question about it, while they are insulting someone who Moslims think sacred.

Now I have seen the true face of Westerners.

these were the same people who were barking crazy when Ahmadinezhad said things about haloacaoast

these cartoons aren't freedom of speech, because these are the same kind of offending cartoons that were done by nazis against Jews. whats the difference both were/are showing jews/muslims as evil and terrorists.

the problem with nazis isn't that they cartooned jews, but that they killed or chased jewish journalists, abolished the freedoms like this freedom of the press you deny here, and finally killed milions of jews. From this perspective, islam is more like nazi than danes with their stupid cartoons . . .

 

They are ignorant about Islam

prove that.



Edited by Boztorgay
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 23:29
Originally posted by Alborz

these were the same people who were barking crazy when Ahmadinezhad said things about haloacaoast


Not necessarily. Probably you are quite wrong about that.


these cartoons aren't freedom of speech, because these are the same kind of offending cartoons that were done by nazis against Jews. whats the difference both were/are showing jews/muslims as evil and terrorists.



The cartoons are crap but crap must be allowed too.

The problem with Nazis is not that they drawed cartoons but that they killed people on ideological grounds: and that's what some fundamentalist Muslims do.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 23:39
Originally posted by barbar

Personnally, I'm a Moslem, but not from a western or a Moslem society.

These discussions give an impression that Most stupid westerners think that the Moslem's can't understand the freedom of speech, as they are not from a democratic society, while ignoring the fact people from a society that lacks freedom cherish freedom more than people from a society that is fully free. 

They are ignorant about Islam, and the diffrence between the cultures. they think "We can press your mother mockingly in naked in our newpaper, because it is our freedom of expression, and you shouldn't be felt offended." While Moslims think that there should be limit for freedom of speech, so that you can't insult other people under the pretex of it.


If you disagree, sue them. For instance certain Indian actress has sued a magazine for putting her face on a naked or scantly dressed body. That's ok. But don't allow your sociological neuro circuits to overflow. On thing is a cartoonist and another is the Denmark, one thing is to sue him and another thing is to make life threats.

Also, Mohammed is not your mother: he is a Universal historical figure and belongs to no one in exclussivity. This is a most important concept.


They also think you can do anything if only you don't physically hurt someone, while Moslims think that what people need not only the pysical comfort, you should also consider their mental comfort. Insulting is different from criticizing.  

Again, if you feel insulted, sue them.


They think their freedom of speech is sacred, and people shouldn't raise question about it, while they are insulting someone who Moslims think sacred.


Our freedom of speech is sacred: more than Quran, more than the Bible, more than the "honor" of our mothers and more than the risk of death and even nuclear war - you bet it.


Now I have seen the true face of Westerners.



What I see is the true face of Muslims: fanatic children that only care about their Hadiths, ignoring the most basic principles of Human Rights.

If we have to be spitted or threatened or even killed because of defending our right to blasphemy, so be it.

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  Quote Boztorgay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 23:46
Il n'y a que les imbciles et les huitres qui adhrent - Paul Valry
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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 23:51
Originally posted by Maju


They think their freedom of speech is sacred, and people shouldn't raise question about it, while they are insulting someone who Moslims think sacred.


Our freedom of speech is sacred: more than Quran, more than the Bible, more than the "honor" of our mothers and more than the risk of death and even nuclear war - you bet it.

The West has fought wars and overthrew kings for the rights they have attained now, and I do not think threats from islamic terrorists are going stop it. Freedom of speach I believe is a basic human right, we were given a free concious for a reason, and not to be told what to do. The Quran was written to its followers, and it says do not draw Allah, so this means that the followers should not draw him.  Thereis a great quote out there that states: I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it.  -Voltaire

Although, this "argument" has less to do with freedom of speach, and much to do with an "insult from the west." I bet many of these extremists who cry out to kill these Danes have never even seen all the cartoons, but only have heard that they depicted Allah.


 



Edited by strategos
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 00:03
Originally posted by Maju

Our freedom of speech is sacred: more than Quran, more than the Bible, more than the "honor" of our mothers and more than the risk of death and even nuclear war - you bet it.

I agree with you.

Freedom of speech gives people the right to draw whatever they want.

But freedom of speech gives people the right to protest whatever they want too.

No double-standards please...




Edited by barish
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  Quote Loknar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 00:08

I wonder,  does this out rage stem from Muslim peoples own insecurities of their faith?

Really, if your faith is insulted/challenged in such a way are you so afraid you will loose your faith or that your whole religion will crumble?

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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 00:13
I am not even muslim, but I protest those cartoons.

Muslims have a tradition of not drawing Muhammed, is it too hard to respect that?
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 00:16

Originally posted by barish


Freedom of speech gives people the right to draw whatever they want.

But freedom of speech gives people the right to protest whatever they want too.

No double-standards please...


 ... protest in the form of a boycott? bomb threats? the threat of murder (Salman Rushdie)? or actual murder itself (Theo Van Gogh)?

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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 00:23

To Maju:

The concept of "absolute good" often result in the "absolute destruction" in human history. When you hold something more than anything else - so goes ability of reasoing. Extreme begot extreme, when you use "freedom of speech" to criticise muslim reactions, it is possible you are criticizing your own reflection 

The Chinese philosophies generally believe there is only one "absolute" value in the world - that is Life, of human, of animal, of plants, of nature itself. And the purpose of life is to continue. Your claim that it was ok to start a nuclear war (which could end all life) to defend the "freedom of speech", I for one found it is extremely selfish.  

A quote from a Japanese novelist:

Human always believe there are something more important than life before the war; it is only after massive death and destruction for people's "believes" that we came to realize there is nothing more important than life.

 

Extreme begot extreme... war between religions is the war between two identical reflections.



Edited by Dream208
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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 00:28

To Strategos:

Cartoon is the reaction to bombing, boycotting is the reaction of cartoon, protest is the reaction of the boycotting... I fear what end would be of this vicious cycle.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 02:04

i found this aricle from another forum, its a good opinion from a UAE national.

As a Muslim, I disagree with this boycott, because it seems to be only temporary. Instead of depending on the west for butter and dairy products, why dont we develop ourselves so that we wont need to trade with them or embargo them ? This whole issue is silly. What about the few Danish people that need their jobs to feed their families, that dont hate the Prophet that way ? What is their responsibility ?

We should have been wiser, and not given Jyllands Posten the Biggest Marketing Campaign in the World. If you want to fight the Media, Dont make a Big Deal out of it. And while were at it, to not entertain Doubt, I say f**k the Jyllands Posten and anyone that hates us Muslims.

We have no one to Blame here but ourselves. Political Backwardness and Lack of Freedom of Speech is why we are Bothered by External Events while out Internal Situaiton Falls apart.

I am going to continue to Buy Danish.
 
 
and this was my comment to him
 
 
wisly said,

i also think that there are many people who have nothing to do with this, and their lives will get effected.

its the Danish government's mistake, the government is a one entity while the muslims are millions who need some type of diplomatic replay to cool them down

i have to admitt it got silly, and almost 80% of the people i know here in UAE did NOT see those drawings and they are imagining somethings even worse.

those drawings were insulting there is no question about that, they are showing hatred and wrong messages about muslims.

but if we look through history we can see that the religion went through tough times and situations and it still under attack from different directions and instead we as muslims give the correct impression about the religion we are showing that we are protesting against a drawing which WE have the RIGHT to do so, But its Clear that the message is not going through the Westerns minds ( mostly), and so far many are using this to show that the Muslims are backwards and against "freedom of Speach/press/expression" WHICH is so not the case, Muslims who are protesting aren't against free speach, the west admitting that their free speach is limited. which Muslims think those drawings are under those limits and under the illegal cover not the legal ones.


bottom line there have been Wrong messages (missunderstandings) going on from Both sides Before these drawings and after these drawings and still going till now.

i think the only solution for this is to be done through governments and mainly the Danish government it isnt too late.

and clearly BOTH are getting effected (not in a good way) and Few who are benifiting from all this.

 
 
 


Edited by azimuth
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  Quote Alborz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 02:06
Originally posted by Boztorgay

the problem with nazis isn't that they cartooned jews, but that they killed or chased jewish journalists, abolished the freedoms like this freedom of the press you deny here, and finally killed milions of jews. From this perspective, islam is more like nazi than danes with their stupid cartoons .

just like how americans and brits kill muslims now in Iraq right?

right.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 02:11
Originally posted by Dream208

To Maju:

The concept of "absolute good" often result in the "absolute destruction" in human history. When you hold something more than anything else - so goes ability of reasoing. Extreme begot extreme, when you use "freedom of speech" to criticise muslim reactions, it is possible you are criticizing your own reflection 

The Chinese philosophies generally believe there is only one "absolute" value in the world - that is Life, of human, of animal, of plants, of nature itself. And the purpose of life is to continue. Your claim that it was ok to start a nuclear war (which could end all life) to defend the "freedom of speech", I for one found it is extremely selfish. 


That's a diference between mainstream Chinese and Western philosophies: for you freedom is just a possibility in life, for us life is just a precondition for freedom.

I don't see any value in mere survival, I don't see any value in the "life" of a slave.


A quote from a Japanese novelist:

Human always believe there are something more important than life before the war; it is only after massive death and destruction for people's "believes" that we came to realize there is nothing more important than life.


Life is very important but it's not all.


Extreme begot extreme... war between religions is the war between two identical reflections.



You can't compare their fundamentalism with our radicalism: we don't get our principles from a book but from our daily praxis, we don't pretend that a ghostly divinity is behind us but we assume our responsabilities.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 02:17
Originally posted by barish

I am not even muslim, but I protest those cartoons.

Muslims have a tradition of not drawing Muhammed, is it too hard to respect that?


Yes. Because it's THEIR tradition, not ours. We have a tradition of drawing all.

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  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 02:20
Originally posted by flyingzone

The reactions of the forumers to this issue may reflect the alarming reality of the world out there - almost all the forumers from "the West", be they "liberal" or "conservative", "left" or "right", "theist" or "atheist" - are united in their opinion against the reaction of the Muslim countries to the cartoons; while almost all the forumers from Muslim countries, be they "liberal" or "conservative", "left" or "right", religious or secular -  are also united in their opinion against the cartoons.

It is clear that when it comes to the definition and interpretation of the "freedom of expression", there is a huge and unbridgeable gap between the West and the Muslims. It is VERY alarming, VERY alarming indeed.


the night passed by ,here in europe ,of course, and i recognize that the lord doesn't read my posts. okay ,may be it's better for him and for me, but stop , the canadian voice of the empyreal wisdom filtered the essence of all this hundred posts of the last few days. i can't agree more`. this event will exemplify the rights of the western countries with unintended support of the liberals,  as the fundamentalists in the muslim world as an example of ignorance of the other side.
alarming in deed ,but obviously the status quo of the relationships of both
groups.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 02:23
Originally posted by azimuth


i think the only solution for this is to be done through governments and mainly the Danish government it isnt too late. 
 


The Danish government can't forbid that, the same that Arafat couldn't disarm the Palestinian militias. It's something that is beyond their power.

And the Danish government has said it very clear: we can't intervene. It's like Egyptian government forbidding to pray in Wednesday or something: it touches the essence of our societies.

Forbidding that kind of expression is like forbidding mosques in Saudi Arabia. It's anti-natura.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 02:59

i didnt say the government should forbid or punish or do anything against their laws.

why many people are assuming so?

a government which is called Democratic truely is elected by the people correct?

so the Danish Government do represent the people of Denmark to the outside world. ( in general)

what made things go this far are NOT the drawings , this what many people are misunderstanding here.

its the Danish government Ignorance and Arrogance replay to their muslim community when these drawings were published, then when the Prime minister refursed to meet with ambassadors of 10 nations.

and arrogantly said its not my business and they can do what they want which meant  "f**k off".

 

that gave the impression to many of the  Muslim population is the world that the danish government approving those insults and NOT caring what harm that done to many people's emotions and feelings.

 

each government in the world should be diplomatic for the sake to get their message correct and leave no room for misunderstanding.

 

so still the danish government can do alot to slove this issue, by making a better speach about it and not saying something stupid like " we dont/cant apologize this how things work here"..  <<< this not smart thing to say really specially to a huge population of people.

i always thought politicians must be very good at speaches !. with the danish PM and the Iranian president , iam starting to think iam wrong.

 

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