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European Press shows solidarity with threatened Danish cartoonist

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: European Press shows solidarity with threatened Danish cartoonist
    Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 06:29

well Europe and the US are demanding our Education system to be changed because in their eyes its anti-semitic !

not to forget many Europeans always talking about Muslims MUST reform their religion and laws in their countries.

Europeans and later the Americans are the ones who interfered with Middle eastern business First.

 

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 06:29
God Bless America!
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 06:34
Ok guys.Chill out.We are not going to solve all the problems between the West and the East in one debate.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 06:57
Originally posted by azimuth

well Europe and the US are demanding our Education system to be changed because in their eyes its anti-semitic !

not to forget many Europeans always talking about Muslims MUST reform their religion and laws in their countries.

Europeans and later the Americans are the ones who interfered with Middle eastern business First.

Yes and the ironic thing is that most of us wouldnt be in their countries to offend them anyway had they not had their hands in our cookie jars for most of the last two centuries and constantly meddled in our affairs, started wars and invaded this country or that. 

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 06:59

 There is a great deal of difference in a cartoon in a country with free press and some of the less than civilised practises and laws Europeans find to be wrong or unjust in certain Muslim countries.

 The difference is almost immeasurable.

 It doesnt take a genius to work out what is right and wrong, the cartoons may not be something Muslims will be particularly fond of, fine, don't read them and get over it, there are more important issues to demonstrate and whine about.

 

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 07:02

Muslims SHOULD accept Europen rules if tehy are going to live in Europe. Muslims do have the right to protest if they want, and boycott if they want. That's the difference between The West and the muslim world. We allow dissenting views and dissenting actions. You don't. IF you don't like Islam and you live in the Muslim world, you'd better keep your mouth shut if you don't want to end up dead or in jail. If you don't like Europe and you live in Europe...then by all means, feel free to tell us how much you hate Europe. As long as you aren't violent, you won't end up in jail.

yeah, they wont end  up in jail, but they should end up out  side  of Europe.  They should accept an attack over them, or they should go out of  Europea, this is what you are saying.


See the difference here? You claim that our freedoms should not allow the drawing of these cartoons becuase they are disgusting in your eyes. Your leaders are calling for our laws to be changed. We however aren't telling you that you shouldn't ahve the freedom to hold a "death to America" march. We aren't telling you that you shouldn't have the freedom to boycott.

You dont know  what you are talking, what  is USA doing in  Iraq, Infact USA even open a war, and kill a lot people to export their idea of  freedom.



 

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 07:06
There is a great deal of difference in a cartoon in a country with free press and some of the less than civilised practises and laws Europeans find to be wrong or unjust in certain Muslim countries.

 The difference is almost immeasurable.

 It doesnt take a genius to work out what is right and wrong, the cartoons may not be something Muslims will be particularly fond of, fine, don't read them and get over it, there are more important issues to demonstrate and whine about.

Do you have  also right  to choose our priorities?

this cartons harm us, Infact  one if  it show, islam itself is  a terrorist organization.

what type of freedom is this? We decide  what is our priorities,  not you.

 

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  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 07:28
Originally posted by Mortaza

Muslims SHOULD accept Europen rules if tehy are going to live in Europe. Muslims do have the right to protest if they want, and boycott if they want. That's the difference between The West and the muslim world. We allow dissenting views and dissenting actions. You don't. IF you don't like Islam and you live in the Muslim world, you'd better keep your mouth shut if you don't want to end up dead or in jail. If you don't like Europe and you live in Europe...then by all means, feel free to tell us how much you hate Europe. As long as you aren't violent, you won't end up in jail.

yeah, they wont end  up in jail, but they should end up out  side  of Europe.  They should accept an attack over them, or they should go out of  Europea, this is what you are saying.



You're failing to see my point. Any muslim who gets too violent or radical, should leave.

I'm not going to be a hypocrite and tell Muslims tehy can't boycott and protest against Europe's freedoms while they are living in Europe. If that is their stance, then they should feel free to express it peacefully. Though, they should expect a fair bit of criticizm.

See the difference here? You claim that our freedoms should not allow the drawing of these cartoons becuase they are disgusting in your eyes. Your leaders are calling for our laws to be changed. We however aren't telling you that you shouldn't ahve the freedom to hold a "death to America" march. We aren't telling you that you shouldn't have the freedom to boycott.

You dont know  what you are talking, what  is USA doing in  Iraq, Infact USA even open a war, and kill a lot people to export their idea of  freedom.

I don't approve of Bush's war, but that is really beside the point. I think that many many laws in teh Middle East should be changed. ANd it should be done peacefully, not through war. These cartoons are critical of your laws, but they are a form of peaceful protest. That, in my opinion, is how we should be expressing our views.

You tell the Danes that they shouldn't have the right to publish these cartoons becuase they're offensive, but it's okay for you to have the right to march and chant for nations to be destroyed. It's hypocritical.

Originally posted by Mortaza

There is a great deal of difference in a cartoon in a country with free press and some of the less than civilised practises and laws Europeans find to be wrong or unjust in certain Muslim countries.

 The difference is almost immeasurable.

 It doesnt take a genius to work out what is right and wrong, the cartoons may not be something Muslims will be particularly fond of, fine, don't read them and get over it, there are more important issues to demonstrate and whine about.

Do you have  also right  to choose our priorities?

this cartons harm us, Infact  one if  it show, islam itself is  a terrorist organization.

what type of freedom is this? We decide  what is our priorities,  not you.


You're basically saying that freedom is okay as long as it isn't offensive to Islam. If that is your stance then you may as well be living in the Middle Ages. Freedom should be universal. As long as a person is peaceful about it, then they should be allowed to criticize whomever they like for whatever reason. That is the West's stance. If you don't want to change or conform to Westerns standards then okay. You can live how you want.  But, you have to accept that the West will never stop this barrage until they see human rights take precedence over religion.



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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 07:39

 This is the kind of overly defensive attitude that I have a problem with, if Allah is so greatly offended by these cartoons then i'm sure he'll smite the editors or something high and mighty.

 Light-heartedness there, might aswell not bother trying to explain what that means.

 Our freedoms permit this sort of thing, yours may not, I don't know nor care to be perfectly honest, the state of the press in some random Muslim country is of no interest to me whatsoever. Nor are a million other issues, I try and keep some perspective, I think though if in certain countries women persist on being made second-class citizens then I am justified to find that abhorrent and uncivilised. The relegation in class of a person based on gender is ridiculous, I believe I have every justification in thinking that.

 However if some Muslim guy graffitied a wall with something highly original like "Death to Americans" or "Democracy bites"  then bloody hell what do i care what that guys thinks? is America supposed to march on Washington DC and demand revenge for this outrage? no and why? because not everybody cares what some crackpot thinks of them from the other side of the globe. There are more important things going on on this rock than some damn cartoons, which are tame by modern standards, I promise you'll find more offensive material in the Simpsons or Family guy than you will in these cartoons.



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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 07:57

If a cartoonist drew an offensive picture of a Jew, doing stereotypical things negatively associated with Jews, you would all say long live freedom of speach? Somehow I don't think so... so why is it different for muslims?

I might not be a Muslim, but I know that anti-Islamic propaganda doesn't harm the extremists who call themselves muslim (it only infact plays very well into their hands) - it hurts anyone that could be of middle eastern appearance.  I don't like being stigmatised.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 07:58

You're failing to see my point. Any muslim who gets too violent or radical, should leave.

You dont see my point, they are not our citizen, they are your citizen, you should punish them acording to your laws. Exiling them is complately double standart, or saying they should leave.

do you think If a german or brit get violent they should also leave?

by the way, leave where?

I'm not going to be a hypocrite and tell Muslims tehy can't boycott and protest against Europe's freedoms while they are living in Europe. If that is their stance, then they should feel free to express it peacefully. Though, they should expect a fair bit of criticizm.

Leave here is not a bit criticizm.

I don't approve of Bush's war, but that is really beside the point. I think that many many laws in teh Middle East should be changed. ANd it should be done peacefully, not through war. These cartoons are critical of your laws, but they are a form of peaceful protest. That, in my opinion, is how we should be expressing our views.

So, now some muslims want to change a law that they think harmful to muslims, and they try to do is peacifully, unlike bush war.

This cartoons are not peaciful, specialy one which show a bomb over Prophet.

You tell the Danes that they shouldn't have the right to publish these cartoons becuase they're offensive, but it's okay for you to have the right to march and chant for nations to be destroyed. It's hypocritical.

Boycott them, as I said  before I dont like flag burning  or death marchs.

You're basically saying that freedom is okay as long as it isn't offensive to Islam.If that is your stance then you may as well be living in the Middle Ages. Freedom should be universal. As long as a person is peaceful about it, then they should be allowed to criticize whomever they like for whatever reason.

criticize is not these pictures doing. Aim of these pictures are provoke(do you hear anyone refuse this). So they reached their aim.

This is the kind of overly defensive attitude that I have a problem with, if Allah is so greatly offended by these cartoons then i'm sure he'll smite the editors or something high and mighty.

It is not Allah offended, It is us.

 

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 08:00

If a cartoonist drew an offensive picture of a Jew, doing stereotypical things negatively associated with Jews, you would all say long live freedom of speach? Somehow I don't think so... so why is it different for muslims?

well look how much, they cared for Ahmedinaj speach of freedom.

 

 

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 08:05

 I didnt even know these cartoons existed under people got so overwhelmingly offended by them, well done you've made them about a million times more famous than they would of been otherwise.

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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 08:06
Originally posted by Maju


Muhammad cartoon row intensifies
French daily newspaper France Soir
Some of the cartoons depict the Prophet Muhammad as a terrorist
Newspapers across Europe have reprinted caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad to show support for a Danish paper whose cartoons have sparked Muslim outrage.

Seven publications in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy and Spain all carried some of the drawings.

Their publication in Denmark led Arab nations to protest. Islamic tradition bans depictions of the Prophet.

The owner of one of the papers to reprint - France Soir - has now sacked its managing editor over the matter.

The cartoons have sparked diplomatic sanctions and death threats in some Arab nations, while media watchdogs have defended publication of the images in the name of press freedom.

Reporters Without Borders said the reaction in the Arab world "betrays a lack of understanding" of press freedom as "an essential accomplishment of democracy."

'Spiting Muslims'

France Soir and Germany's Die Welt were among the leading papers to reprint the cartoons, which first appeared in Denmark last September.

The caricatures include drawings of Muhammad wearing a headdress shaped like a bomb, while another shows him saying that paradise was running short of virgins for suicide bombers.

France Soir originally said it had published the images in full to show "religious dogma" had no place in a secular society.

CARTOON ROW
Palestinians burn a Danish flag
30 Sept: Danish paper Jyllands-Posten publishes cartoons
20 Oct: Muslim ambassadors in Denmark complain to Danish PM
10 Jan: Norwegian publication reprints cartoons
26 Jan: Saudi Arabia recalls its ambassador
30 Jan: Gunmen raid EU's Gaza office
31 Jan: Danish paper apologises
1 Feb: Papers in France, Germany, Italy and Spain reprint cartoons

But late on Wednesday its owner, Raymond Lakah, said he had removed managing editor Jacques Lefranc "as a powerful sign of respect for the intimate beliefs and convictions of every individual".

Mr Lakah said: "We express our regrets to the Muslim community and all people who were shocked by the publication."

The president of the French Council of the Muslim Faith (CFCM), Dalil Boubakeur, had described France Soir's publication as an act of "real provocation towards the millions of Muslims living in France".

Other papers stood by their publication. In Berlin, Die Welt argued there was a right to blaspheme in the West, and asked whether Islam was capable of coping with satire.

"The protests from Muslims would be taken more seriously if they were less hypocritical," it wrote in an editorial.

La Stampa in Italy, El Periodico in Spain and Dutch paper Volkskrant also carried some of the drawings.

European Muslims spoke out against the pictures.

In Germany, the vice-chairman of the central council of Muslims said Muslims would be deeply offended.

"It was done not to defend freedom of the press, but to spite the Muslims," Mohammad Aman Hobohm said.

Sanctions

Correspondents say the European papers' actions have widened a dispute which has grown very serious for Denmark.

ART AND BLASPHEMY CHARGES
Burning copy of Satanic Verses
1989: Iranian spiritual leader Ayatollah Khomeini calls on Muslims to kill British author Salman Rushdie for alleged blasphemy in his book The Satanic Verses
2002: Nigerian journalist Isioma Daniel's article about Prophet and Miss World contestants sparks deadly riots
2004: Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh killed after release of his documentary about violence against Muslim women
2005: London's Tate Britain museum cancels plans to display sculpture by John Latham for fear of offending Muslims after July bombings

The publication last September in Jyllands-Posten has provoked diplomatic sanctions and threats from Islamic militants across the Muslim world.

Foreign Minister Per Stig Moeller has postponed a trip to Africa because of the dispute.

Thousands of Palestinians protested against Denmark this week, and Arab ministers called on it to punish Jyllands-Posten.

Syria and Saudi Arabia have recalled their ambassadors to Denmark, while Libya said it was closing its embassy in Copenhagen and Iraq summoned the Danish envoy to condemn the cartoons.

The Danish-Swedish dairy giant Arla Foods says its sales in the Middle East have plummeted to zero as a result of the row, which sparked a boycott of Danish products across the region.

The offices of Jyllands-Posten had to be evacuated on Tuesday because of a bomb threat.

The paper had apologised a day earlier for causing offence to Muslims, although it maintained it was legal under Danish law to print them.

Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen welcomed the paper's apology, but defended the freedom of the press.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4670370.stm




Yes, we have the right to caricature God, says France Soir, while a cartoon Jesus tells a grim Muhammed: "Don't get upset, Muhammed, we all have been caricatured here".

The question is that Muhammed and Allah, along with other religious figures have always been caricaturized in our culture:


A classical comic version of the Bible, where you see God dictating the 10 commandments to a frantic Moses on top of mount Sinai.


God in the beach, controlling the Sun at will.

And there's a lot harder stuff. Get used.

Long live press and speech freedom, i feel very good if i see europeans people defence their beliefs in democracy and freedom against intolerance 

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 08:08
Originally posted by azimuth

A Danish flag with a black footprint painted on it

Kuwaitis protest outside the Danish embassy in Gaza on 28 January

In the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, Shia clerics burned the Danish flag.

Two Yemeni women hold placards calling for a boycott of Danish goods

An employee removes Danish goods from the shelves of an Egyptian supermarket

Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa surrounded by journalists

It amazes me that the people in those photographs apparently don't realise how idiotic and childish their actions make them look.

Yes people have a right to boycott whatever they want and protest about whatever they want, just like children can stamp their feet and scream and throw things whenever their parents won't let them do something.

This kind of exaggerated sense of 'honour' and need for 'respect' is typical of some other cultures - it is for instance the hallmark of the streetgang cultures of some US and other inner cities. Do these people really want to line themselves up with the Crips?



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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 08:14
Originally posted by Mortaza

this cartons harm us

Torrid nonsense. Not one person anywhere in the world has suffered even one tiny bit of physical harm as a result of these cartoons.

That's important.

That somehow or other your egos have been pierced is unimportant. Just as unimportant as it would be if mine were.

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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 08:14
Originally posted by azimuth

not to forget many Europeans always talking about Muslims MUST reform their religion and laws in their countries.

Azimuth i think too and i am not europian or american, there are too many middle eastern scholars and non scholars think like that. Although i think islam isn't reformable, but you should divide it from gov. and politics to be secular. The very most thing muslims badly need is tolerance. So try to be more tolerated rather than  to blame european for their press and speech freedom.

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 08:18

gcle-

 Thats pretty much the impression I got of them also, it seems they are incapable of a calm and rational protest, if it doesnt imvolve burning something or hating yet another western country then its obviously not worth complaining about.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 08:20

Torrid nonsense. Not one person anywhere in the world has suffered even one tiny bit of physical harm as a result of these cartoons.

That's important.

That somehow or other your egos have been pierced is unimportant. Just as unimportant as it would be if mine were.

err in  Turkey, If you harm someone emotionaly, you should pay some money for you guilt. dont you  have same laws?

 

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 08:30
Originally posted by Zagros

If a cartoonist drew an offensive picture of a Jew, doing stereotypical things negatively associated with Jews, you would all say long live freedom of speach?

Of course I would. And, in fact, Jews themselves are in general notorious for their ability and willingness to make jokes about their religion.

 

One of the West's most famous plays contains an anti-Semitic caricature. But no-one is going to ban Shakespeare's 'Merchant of Venice' just because of that.

(Well, there may be one or two zealots who might protest, but no-one would pay any attention to them.)

You know, every single Muslim country has committed itself to a treaty guaranteeing that

"Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty."

Saudi Arabia, to keep the record straight, abstained when that motion was adopted by the UN in 1948. It didn't vote against. It didn't leave. By remaining in the UN, it has made that promise. So has Iran and every other Muslim state member of the UN. They have promised that there will be no distinction made between individuals on the basis of their sex.

I don't see much sign of their keeping their promises. So much for 'honour' and 'respect'.

 

 

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