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Notable Battles of Medieval Hungarians

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Notable Battles of Medieval Hungarians
    Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 03:23
Hi everybody!
 
I am here again.
 
Soon I try to post battle descriptions again. Keep waiting. Wink
 
And for now:
The symbolical execution of John Hunyadi after the battle of Sntimbru
 
Raider
 
PS.
I can't post images.
 
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Only members with sufficient permission can access this page.
Are there any new rules about it?
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 11:04
Originally posted by maqsad

Anyone got details of the war of the Avars and Lombards versus the Gepids in 567? That was the beginning of the Avar Khaganate was it not? And also their main entry into the region.
 
Hi!
 
In few words:
 
In the 6. cent. arrived the langobards in the Charpatian basin. Their king, Wacho married the daughter of the gepid (and herul) king Elemund.
 
but later two other kings, Audoin and Thorisind made war since 547. In the late 550-s Alboin and Kunimund got the langobard and the gepid throne.
(the gepid main town was Sirmium)
 
Byzantium supported the gepids (after they promised to give Sirmium back to B.), so Alboin called the avars (who lived north of the Black see) under Bayan cagan for help. The avars attacked the transylwanian gepids, the langobard the others by the Tisza in 567. The greeks occupiad without blood Sirmium.
The gepids were defeated, but some of their groups "moved in peace" with the langobard in the next year to Italy, and some Groups lived in the C.b. in the time of the Hungarian conq. too.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 17:29
Hi Raider,
this is a very interesting topic. However, I am really interested in one not so known aspect of Sigismund's "imperialism": Do you (or any other poster) know anything more about Sigismund's campaigns against Bosnia, namely more about Battle of Dobor 1408 (I believe it was German chronicler Wiendeck/e who wrote about 60, 000 Hungarians and Poles and Sigismund personally led the army in September of that year, see Dobor Massacre) and especially the Battle of Doboj 1415 (under John de Gara, serb: Ivan Gorjanski and John de Morro, serb: Ivan Morovic) where Hungarians lost (Bosnians have had help of allegedly ~ 20,000 Turks under Isa-Bey). I believe this is rather not so widely known part of Sigismund reign, though it was very active (he waged a continuous series of "mini wars" annually against Bosnians since 1397/98 through 1415 until that larger defeat). Best regards and I am hoping for some more details !!!
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2007 at 05:14
Originally posted by Okrojsha

Hi Raider,
this is a very interesting topic. However, I am really interested in one not so known aspect of Sigismund's "imperialism": Do you (or any other poster) know anything more about Sigismund's campaigns against Bosnia, namely more about Battle of Dobor 1408 (I believe it was German chronicler Wiendeck/e who wrote about 60, 000 Hungarians and Poles and Sigismund personally led the army in September of that year, see Dobor Massacre) and especially the Battle of Doboj 1415 (under John de Gara, serb: Ivan Gorjanski and John de Morro, serb: Ivan Morovic) where Hungarians lost (Bosnians have had help of allegedly ~ 20,000 Turks under Isa-Bey). I believe this is rather not so widely known part of Sigismund reign, though it was very active (he waged a continuous series of "mini wars" annually against Bosnians since 1397/98 through 1415 until that larger defeat). Best regards and I am hoping for some more details !!!
In fact the medieval Bosnian-Hungarian relations are one of the least researched area in Hungarian historiography. I know only three relevant essays and these focus on special questions like the kingdom of Mikls jlaki. Hungarian historians are heavily rely on works of Yugoslavian historians.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2007 at 11:02
Ooops, then I am left hangin' up there. I did read everything I could have found about these battles in the Yugoslav sources (Corovic in particular offers a lot of details). If you want to know more about these, I can add some of those events here when I have some down time? Regards!

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 08:07
Originally posted by Okrojsha

Ooops, then I am left hangin' up there. I did read everything I could have found about these battles in the Yugoslav sources (Corovic in particular offers a lot of details). If you want to know more about these, I can add some of those events here when I have some down time? Regards!

 One fundamental works from this area refered by Pl Engel is  
Sima Ćirković: Istorija srednjovekovne Bosanske drzave. (I hope I have spelled it correctly.)
 
I am looking forward to your posts about htese battles. Wink
 
 
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 09:19

The Battle of Varna

10th November 1444

A) Background The false peace of Vrad

In 1439 Ottoman armies conquered Serbia and the despot sought refuge in his Hungarian estates. Shortly after their return from long campaign arrangements were made for a new crusade, by which they hoped to crush Ottoman power once and for all. In April 24th 1444 king Uladislaus II made an oath in the Hungarian Diet to launch this new crusade.

The sultan, Murad II realised that his empire is not able to fougth a two front war and sent envoys to his father in-law, Đurađ Branković, the exiled despot. He promised Branković to release his captive sons and give back to his country if he manages to mediate peace with Hungary. The despot successfully found the weak point of the crusaders: John Hunyadi. Hunyadi had many virtue, but he also had flaws. He was known about his greed, his insatiable appetite for lands. Branković had huge possessions in Hungary and he promised most of them to Hunyadi if a peace would be made.

With the help of Hunyadi one of Brankovics men Stojka Gisdanic got a letter of commision by the royal chancellary. (April 25th 1444) Presumably It was written without the knowledge of the king. In 12th June a preliminary peace treaty was negotiated and signed by Brankovic in the name of Hunyadi and Uladislaus. Murad promised 10 years peace, the release of the captives, 100 thousand golden florins. He offered to restore Serbia (with 24 castles), and promised that he will help Hungary with 25 000 soldiers if needed. The treaty was agreed to come in effect 8 days after the Hungarian king confirms it with an oath. In 3rd July Brankovic had the donation documents made.
 
Meanwhile the preparations continued. In 22th June a Papal-Venetian-Burgundian fleet departed for the Dardanelles commanded by the Venetian Alvisio Loredano.The king gathered his army to Oradea (Hung. Vrad) by 15th July.

Trusting in the promises Murad II went to Asia Minor to deal with Karamania in 12 July. At the same time Hunyadi informed the king about the Ottoman offer and asked him to come Szeged to meet the Ottoman envoys. In 25th July the king left Buda and went to Szeged to where he arrived at 1st August.

Cardinal Cesarini the main supporter of the crusade strongly opposed the peace. He wanted to crush the Ottomans, he wanted to unite Orthodoxy with the Latin Church. Hunyadi supported the peace, he was convinced by Brankovic. Hunyadis reputation was so high that there couldnt be a crusade without him. Finally the wily cardinal found a way which ensured Hunyadi that he could keep the Brankovic estates and also ensured the crusade.

 
To win Hunyadis support he was promised the throne of the restored Bulgaria. Cesarini convinced king Uladislaus to make a final oath. In this oath he promised that he will launch a crusade and promised that this oath is stronger than any future treaty, even if this treaty was made by oath. Cardinal Cesarini was an expert jurist and he knew that after this oath the future treaty with the Ottomans will be automaticly invalid. After these dishonest act the treaty was confirmed. Hunyadi take the oath in the name of the king in Oradea (Hung. Vrad) in 15th August. After the ratification of the peace Hunyadi entered into the former Brankovic possessions.

[NOTE: Older books might be name this peace the peace of Szeged because of the improper reconstruction of events.]

Murad II -as he promised- gave back Smederevo to Brankovic in 22nd August. Then left for Asia to deal with Karamania. After he solved the Karaman question,  abdicted in favor of his son Mehmed II.

B) The crusade

The plan

According to the plan the allied fleet sails to the Sea of Marmara and with the help of the Byzantine army withholds any Ottoman attempt to cross an army from Asia Minor to Europe. So Uladislaus army has to deal only with the Rumelian forces. The strategic aim of the campaign was the capture of Adrianople (modern Edirne) from which they hoped the collapse of European Ottoman power.

The crusader army

This time the crusader army was smaller than during the Winter Campaign. Shortly after a civil war, when the opposing party still rule territories in the country Uladislaus had to leave behind significant forces to secure his back. Cardinal Cesarini gathered 1000 crusader insurgents, but these were rag-tag forces and did not worthed much.

There were also much less Polish troops. The peace was favourable and the Polish magnates did not support the war. They did not want to risk lifes and spend money to such an undertaking.

Swiftness was key element in the plan so the crusaders minimalized the number of infantry. The soldiers were horsemen with the exception of the war wagons crew. The army also lacked appropriate siege artillery because of the same intentions. The whole army consisted cca. 15 000 men.

Uladislaus and Hunyadi hoped that their Albanian, Walachian allies and the Serbs of Brankovic would also join to them. But the deluded despot remained home and forbid the Albanians to cross his land.

The campaign

In 22nd September the crusader army crossed the Danube and the invasion began. Their advance completely surprised the Ottomans and the young Mehmed II was unable to control the situation which was worsened by internal rivalry.

In 29th September the crusader army captured Vidin. They killed the garrison, but spared the civilian population.

Two weeks later the crusaders stand at the outskirts of Nicopolis (today Nikopol) where 4000 Wallachian light horsemen joined them. At Nicopolis a messenger arrived and reported that the allied fleet secured the Bosporus and the Dardanelles.

Though these pieces of information were outdated. Murad II returned to power and reached the Dardanelles with the Anatolian troops. News about the peace treaty caused confusion the Italian allies and they armed only 21 ships and only 15 of them guarded the Dardanelles. The Byzantine emperor released the pretender, Orhan to cause confusion, but did not send troops to guard the shore. The Ottoman cannonfire from both sides of the straits was enough to keep the allied ships away while the Genoese ships transported them to the other side. One soldier for one gold coin.

Soon after Murad reached Adrianople and joined his forces with the Rumelian army. Now his army numbered cca 40 000 men. Uladislaus and Hunyadi still beleived that he is in Asia and he managed to manoeuvre his army to the back of the crusaders and cut their supply lines and way of retreat.

The battle of Varna

Now the crusaders faced a dilemma. They were unable to carry on their march to Adrianople with the Ottoman army behind them. Cardinal Cesarini suggested that they should withdraw to a wagenburg and defend there. This idea was rejected. Most of the crusaders were mounted and they have not enought cannons to defend there. Finally war council chose to fight an open field battle with Murads forces.

The battle order

The crusaders stood in an arc between the Varna Lake and the Black Sea. The left wing consisted five banderia of the Hungarian lords, besides them Hunyadis Transylvanian and Temes troops. The left wing was commanded by Mihly Szilgyi, Hunyadis brother-in-law. In the first row of the centre stood the Hungarian and Polish royal household cavalry. In the second row the king with the royal bodyguard and cardinal Cesarini with the crusaders. The royal standard was carried by Istvn Btori the judge of the royal court (iudex curiae regis). In the right wing stood the Rafael Herceg the bishop of Bosnia with his banderium, Frank Tallci the ban of Slavonia with Croatian-Slavonian troops,the Polish  troops and the banderia of the bishops of Eger (Simon Rozgonyi) and Vrad (Jnos De Dominis). Behind the right wing the crusaders set up a wagenburg guarded by  the infantry. Hunyadi formed a reserve force from the Wallachians and his elite heavy cavalry.

In the Ottoman center stood the janissaries in a position fortified by stakes and bund ditch, behind them the Sultan with sipahis of the Porte (household troops). The Rumelian sipahi (medium cavarly) formed the Ottoman right. They were led by Dawud pasha. The Anatolian sipahi corps formed the left wing led by Karadzha pasha. Akincis (light cavalry) and asabs (light infantry) were attached to the left wing.

The battle was started by the Ottomans. The asabs and the akincis began to shoot arrows to the Hungarian right. Tallci commanded his troops to stay in formation, but the hot-headed bishops of Eger and Vrad lost their temper by the continuous harassment and charged them. The lightly armoured troops cannot stand against the heavy cavalry of the banderia, they lured the bishops to the sipahis. The chasing loosened up the formation of the knights and when Anatolian corps charged their side they were crushed. Since the bishops banderia destroyed Tallci was unable to resist the Ottoman presure and retreated to the wagenburg. By this time Hunyadi realised the threat and sideattacked the Anatolian sipahis with the reserve force and managed crush them. Karadzha pasha died his troops scattered. The Wallachians encircle the unguarded Ottoman center and attacked and looted the Ottoman camp. Hunyadi with his forces returned to the centre.

Meanwhile Szilgyi and the left wing charged the Rumelian. The sipahis had little room to manoeuvre and they couldnt stand against the charge of the heavy cavalry. Though Szilgyi failed to broke them and they orderly withdraw. Szilgyis forces chasing Dawud pasha was lured away from the battlefield.

When Hunyadi returned to the king the situation was promising. The Ottoman left was crushed, the right was driven away. The centre was relativly tranquil. King Uladislaus and cardinal Cesarini suggested a final, full-scale charge against the janissaries. They beleived that they could broke them and could finish the battle gloriously. Hunyadi and some other lords opposed the frontal charge and tried to dissuade the king. Finally the cardinal threatened them with excommunication if they would disobey the royal order. The charge began and it was only partially successful. Then the horse of the king was killed and Uladislaus fell to the ground and was beheaded. His head was pinned up to a spear. Cardinal Cesarini and the royal standard bearer was also killed. After the failed charge and the death of the king the crusaders began to flee. Hunyadi tried to stop them and organized a second charge, but in this momment Dawud pasha returned to the battlefield with the Rumelian corps. Hunyadis attempt failed and crusader army fled leaving behind the infantry. Murad II won the battle and on the following day the Ottomans charged and killed the infantry of the wagenburg.

The final charge of the king by Jan Matejko


C) Aftermath

This defeat was a catastrophe. Although the Ottomans also had heavy losses and not pursued them the crusader army lost 7-8000 men. Replacing heavy cavalry was extremely difficult. Moreover the fragile peace of Hungary was shattered. The child Ladislaus Posthumus in Vienna remained the sole king of Hungary, while the country was admnistered by the supporters of the late Uladislaus. Danger of a new civil was near at hand.

Hunyadi in the Thuroczy Chronicle

Hunyadi managed to escape from the battle, but on route to Hungary he was captured by the Wallachian voivod. He was only released by the direct threat of the count palatine.
 
NOTE
Due to technical difficulties I can't post pictures. So I inserted links to the pictures.


Edited by Raider - 06-Feb-2007 at 10:40
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 10:18
Good work!!
 
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 05:37
anyone got informations on early early hungarian battles like Avars vs the Byzantines
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 11:44
Hi!
 
I have a short script about the treaty between Bayan and the greeks by Singidunuum somewhere, and some byzantine stories about the captured soldiers of an avarian army (avar horsemen and slawic infantries), but descriptions of the battles...no.  But I 'll try to find something about this.
 
It is very flattering for hungarians to call avars "early early hungarian"-s, but it is not 100 % prooven that we were part of the avar tribes. Certenly, the survivors of the avars lived in the Hungarian kingdom, but not 100% vice versa.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 00:26
OK, I will finally post about the two battles I mentioned above (and asked for additional info, but to no avail :( ). Basically, Sigismund considered Bosnian kingdom to be a Hungarian domain, and on top of that, a heretical one (google "Bosnian Church" to find more). Perhaps it is important to make a point here that medieval Bosnia was inhabitated by Serbs and Croats sine the earliest times and that Bosnian domain was rather like a Burgundy in 15th century France, that is, independent and distinct political body, but belonging to French people nevertheless.

Thus Battle of Dobor 1408 was organized as a sort of punishing expedition and it was led by Emperor Sigismund himself. According to German and Sigismund's chronicler Wiendeck, Hungarian army was about 60,000 men strong (some other sources like Dlugosz mention 50,000-more likely number) and it included contigents of Polish (under Zawish Charny), Czech and Lithanuian knights as well. Once the the whole army gathered, it crossed the river Sava (natural northern border between Bosnia and Croatia) in early September 1408 and had couple of smaller engagements with Bosnians (some 15,000-20,000  men under dukes Hrvoje Vukcic, Sandalj Hranic, Pavao Radinovic and King Ostoja) in the province/bannate/dukedom of Usora (traditionally a border zone between Bosnia and Hungary throughout the Middle Ages). Many castles in Usora were razed and taken by Hungarians (Soko, Kovac, Doboj, Srebrenik?), but it appears that the main battle occured somewhere around the city and castle of Doboj in Usora and Bosnians were defeated. Sigismund took many noble prisoners and organized his camp in the castle of Dobor (some 40 km north from Doboj), close to the river Sava and his kingdom.

The night after the main battle has occured, Sigismund organized the banquet for his nobility to celebrate the his victory and successes thus so far. Sometimes in the middle of the night (and perhaps related to the effects of alcohol), Sigismund himself started throwing some of the Bosnian nobles from high Dobor's cliffs into the river Bosna below. His most loyal nobles joined in the orgy, and in the end some 127 Bosnian nobles (according to Wiendeck) met their end on the rocks and in the river Bosna. It is interesting, though, that those highest Bosnian nobles/dukes lived (probably because of the nice ransom money). However, this unchivalrious act enraged the Bosnians in the time to come, but also produced deep rivalries and animosities among the top two generals: Great Duke Hrvoje Vukcic (supreme commander of the Bosnian army and owner of most of Western and Northwestern Bosnia as well as some Dalmatian islands) and his nephew-in-law, Duke Sandalj Hranic-Kosaca (owner and overlord of the South and Southeastern Bosnia and part of today's Montenegro). These animosities only got deeper as Great Duke Hrvoje Vukcic (in the years following the Dobor massacre he tried hard to find a truce with Sigismund as he became aware of Sigismund's seemingly unlimited power) became one of the most important knights of the Order of the Dragon and even became godfather to Sigismund's daughter in 1412.

This did not feel right to the majority of Bosnian nobility and he was seen as an outcast in Croatian and Bosnian annals of the time (he was called "the most hated and despicable Pharaoh"by people of Split, "the one who plots with dirty Saracens (i.e. Turks) to bring the disaster upon Christian people in these godly lands"). To make matter worse, Sigismund started believing his own Hungarian nobles who became too jealous of Hrvoje's recent and high position in Sigismund's eyes, so in the end Sigismund started treating his elderly (Hrvoje was in his mid fifties around this time-1414) vassal rudely and asked for many of his lands and cities to be given to him (to Sigismund). Even though he sent few (almost pathetic) letters to Sigismund, Hrvoje realized that Sigismund has turned against him again and asked the Turks for help. In his letter to Dubrovnik in 1414, Hrvoje brags that Turkish sultan promised to send him 30,000 soldiers if he ever needs them for fight against Hungarians and it seems that he was really becoming to think about an agressive action against Hungary.

Battle of Doboj 1415

Finally, Hungarian pressure on the rest of Bosnian lands (Hungarians kept royal town of Bobovac ever since 1405/6 when they took it under Pipo of Ozzora, and it is very likely that they kept Dukedom of Usora since the successes in 1408) caused the rest of the nobility to support Hrvoje once again and it seemed that Turkish help will indeed come. In May 1415, Sigismund already planned to attack Bosnia once more and he asked all the royal Hungarian towns to pay certain money for the campaign and started gathering banderias for an attack across river Sava sometimes in the summer of that year. In the late June 1415, Hungarian main army camp was located on the wide field under the castle of Doboj in Usora. Johannes Gara (Ivan Gorjanski in Serbian, what is the original/Hungarian name?) was located here with his army and Johannes Morro (Serb: Ivan Morovic) arrived with his army probably sometime in late July.

Whether they knew it or not at the time, Bosnian army was gathering in the central Bosnia (around today's city of Zenica) where they met with strong Turkish army under Isa-Bey (some contemporary Turkish sources tell about 20,000 men, it is also very likely that Bosnians could've mustered just about the same number of fighters, so in total this army could not have been larger than 40,000 men. Still, even this number seems little too high, I personally believe that there was just about 30,000 + men in the  Bosnian/Turkish coalition altogether).  Either way, after two armies joined they started heading north, toward Usora, the old battlefield ground between Hungarians and Bosnians. In the early August (around Aug. 10th) there happened a large battle between the opposing forces around the city and castle of Doboj (Makljenovac and around the area where river Usora conjoins the river Bosna).

Hungarian  sources claim that at first, Hungarian heavy cavalry charges pushed deep into the Bosnian lines and that it seemed that victory is just a matter of minutes. It is at this moment, that some of the Bosnians started frantically cheering from the surrounding hills (this area is very flat , but it does have some woody hills at the southern edge of the battlefield-where the Bosnian camp was located) as if they were winning, and supposedly, this created the confusion in Hungarian lines which Bosnians and Turks used to their benefit, starting to cut down and chase the fleeing Hungarians. On the other side, Bosnian sources (V. Corovic) claim that this was just the excuse by Hungarians in order to excuse themselves for the major defeat and in front of Sigismund who was not there during the battle. What is known for sure, is that, Hungarians indeed suffered a major defeat in the battle that lasted the whole day, that certain smaller units were chased through the Usora for days after the battle, and that many of the nobles were taken prisoner (Johannes Gara, Johannes Morro, Pavel Czupor). It is also very likely that Hungarian army was some 20% smaller than Bosnian/Turkish coalition army as not all of major Hungarian magnates were present at the battlefield (actually, it is documented that they were surprised to see that all of the traditionally antagonized Bosnian nobles faced them together with their armies this time, including the king Ostoja of Kotromanic dynasty)

There is also a well-known legend in the area that Great Duke Hrvoje spared lives of all Hungarian nobles who were caught, but for Pavel Czupor (I hope this rings the bell, in Serbian he's known as Pavao Cupor) who mocked him once at Sigismund's court by imitating a bull's voice while Hrvoje was speaking (Hrvoje was widely known as being of a larger frame, and to have a harsh/raspy voice). So, as an act of revenge, Hrvoje ordered that Cupor is to be put in an ox's rawhide/skin and sewed in it. Once that was done, he ordered that Cupor is to be thrown into river Bosna alive with words "thou mocked a human with the bull's voice; alas, the only bull here is thee". For long time, this was considered to be the fact, until one of the historians did not find the document (from 1417) which explicitly mentions Cupor as being in charge of one of his towns/castles. That's all for now, sorry about the long post, I hope this helps reveal some not so known detail of our mutual history.
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 10:40
Thanks Okrojsha!
 
It is very interesting. Could you write us something about the arms used by XIV-XV. century Bosnians (in the battle of Doboj for exapmle). Were they mostly infantry or mounted warriors?  What about heavy cavalry? etc.
 
Some remarks:
1. 50-60 000 men Hungarian armies. It seems me an exageration. Hungarian armies of this age was smaller. (15-30 000)
 
2. Johannes Gara = Garay Jnos (or in later texts Garai Jnos)
 
3. I think the murder of the Bosnian nobles shows us an important aspect of the personality of the emperor-king. He could be very cold-hearted and cruel if this was his political interest.
 
 
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 14:20
Originally posted by Raider

Some remarks:
1. 50-60 000 men Hungarian armies. It seems me an exageration. Hungarian armies of this age was smaller. (15-30 000)
 
Długosz's numbers are usually exaggerated Smile
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 03:16
Okrojsha, did you write those by yourself? Just wondering, I believe you did but I need confirmation.

Thanks,
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 12:50
Thanks Okrojsha!
 
It is very interesting. Could you write us something about the arms used by XIV-XV. century Bosnians (in the battle of Doboj for exapmle). Were they mostly infantry or mounted warriors?  What about heavy cavalry? etc.
 
Some remarks:
1. 50-60 000 men Hungarian armies. It seems me an exageration. Hungarian armies of this age was smaller. (15-30 000)
 
2. Johannes Gara = Garay Jnos (or in later texts Garai Jnos)
 
3. I think the murder of the Bosnian nobles shows us an important aspect of the personality of the emperor-king. He could be very cold-hearted and cruel if this was his political interest.
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everyone, I will send a larger post later on today or tomorrow, but for now, just the quick reply:
Yes, I wrote the text myself, but I was mainly using the information published in "Historija Bosne " (History of Bosnia) by Vladimir Corovic, respected pre-WWII Yugoslav historian (much more trustworthy and well-rounded historian as compared to S.Cirkovic who did not know that much about medieval Bosnia). Also, I agree with Raider, those numbers do seem like exaggerations to me, 50,000 men indeed is a large army for that time. As for the Bosnian-style knight, I will write more about this, but for now, they were typical central-European type of knights (with the obvious influences from Serbia, Hungary or Croatia). Most of the higher nobility had their own mounted cavalry units, Hungarian sources from 1388 particularly talk about "participation of well-armed Serbian and Bosnian heavy cavalry" (V.Corovic, History of Bosnia, p.322) in the battles/smaller clashes with the Hungarians under Nicholas Gara and Stephen Corrogy (Serb: Stjepan Korodj) who were sent by Sigismund to suppress the Croatian rebellion against Sigismund at this time. Also, Zemaljski Muzej in Sarajevo has some nice pieces of medieval Bosnian armour and weaponry (lances, swords, helmets, cannonballs). Also, in Battle of Kosovo, Bosnian king Tvrtko I had sent his Great Duke Vlatko Vukovic (some sources claim he was an uncle to the future Great Duke Hrvoje Vukcic) with about 5,000 heavily mounted knights to Prince Lazar's coalition. Also, this same duke Vlatko Vukovic has defeated a samller Turkish army at Bileca (Eastern Herzegovina) on August 27, 1388, just a year prior to the Battle of Kosovo. According to Corovic, Turks were overran by the heavy cavalry and only their leader Shain and small group of his clique had survived the battle by running away (more of this in S.Nodilo: "Li annali della nobilissima republica di Ragusa", Zagrabiae 1883). I will write more about the units and the weaponry, but also about some intersting details about Bosnian-Hungarian relationship (for instance, Bosnian "parliament" in the mediaeval time was named "Rusag Bosanski", a deviation of Hungarian "Urszag" :-)
Best regards to all !!!

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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 14:04
I never heard before about these battles, thanks! Just about the battles and sieges around Jajca in the 15-16. cent.)
(I have a picture fron a bosnian king-sword somewhere, I'll post it as soon as possible)
 
TSZ


Edited by Tar Szernd - 03-Mar-2007 at 14:05
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 01:01
Hi again, I think it is rather interesting to note that Sigismund "had a thing" for throwing the nobles down from high places (he did the same thing to  a major Croatian political figure and a rebel to Sigismund's regime at the meeting in Krizevci in 1414-he threw him down from the window-kinda like "The Braveheart" scene, I guess :-). It is a pity I can't recall gentleman's name right now, though) . Anyhow, those two battles that I wrote about are just some of the major clashes between Bosnia and Hungary (there were some other larger battles-Srebrenik and the Usora valley again in 1363; here the royal Hungarian seal was lost and the Castle of Srebrenik was not even taken in the end by the Hungarians, the castle is located on the imposing cliff, though, just google "Srebrenik castle" and you will know what I meant by this. Also, there were many, many more battles:  Battle of Dubica and Vrbaski Grad in 1398, First Battle of Dobor in 1394-Sigismund had Croatian rebels, brothers Horvat, captured and had one of the brother, I believe it was Ivanis Horvat, quartered with horses on the streets of Pecuh; Hungarian army also razed and burnt castle of Dobor at this time as well). There are many more interesting details about Hungarian "crusades" against Bosnians, Croats and Serbians and I will write more later. Cheers, Okrojsha.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 15:51

The 1241 Mongol Excursion into Europe

to better understand the Battle of Mohi on Sajo River,
fought on 1241.04.11,
one needs to analyze the wider picture, i.e., the whole mongol strategy and operations in europe, and wider ...
 
within 48 hours of that april 11,
mongols won 3 battles: at legnica, sajo and hermannstadt_nagyszeben_sibiu
 
and, from their global perspective, that was just a first step of an eventual conquest ...
 
mongol commander kadan was ordered to close the most western jaw,
passing from near Wien_Vienna south toward modern day Rijeka Croatia
 
just north of rijeka his ~8000 strong force was attacked by a, perhaps equally strong, combined army of in-laws, families, later known as
counts of krk    > frankopan
counts of bribir > subic
counts of gorz_gorica_gorizia
counts of kupa-sava > babonic
 
in technical terms, the battle seems to have been a draw,
with heavy casualties on both sides, thus the name of the field became to be known as
Grobnicko Polje (a graveyard)
 
strategically, kadan had to abandon his pursuit of king bela iv,
or at least he had been slowed, which might have saved bela's life
bela retreated, hid, at island of rab, dalmatia, klis, trogir > islands, ...
 
kadan retreated toward split, dubrovnik, ulcinj, where he got knews about the death of the Great Khan,
and joined the main army south-western flank
 
beside elections in karakorum,
mongols have to get ready for a new big battle
1243 battle of kosedag
 
and korea, and china, ...
 
thus, mongols "withdrew" from balkans, and eastern europe, but not for long
their exceptionally capable emir nogai controled eastern balkan and wider area, until the end of 13ct
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 23:19
Originally posted by The Chargemaster

ZRINYI MIKLOS(NIKOLA SUBIC ZRINSKI) - THE GREAT HERO OF SZIGETVAR

This, however was not the end of the resistance.
Booty-hungry Janissaries invaded the fortress searching for the alleged treasures of Mikls Zrnyi. Thousands jammed the yard and the tower when the last holdout, a young woman hiding in the underground ammunition chamber, threw a flaming torch into the gunpowder stored in the cellar. The terrible detonation which followed buried not only those in the tower but practically everyone in the yard.

The story about Nikola ubić Zrinski  and his heroic deeds is the main theme of the opera with the same name,
written and composed by the Croatian composer Ivan Zajc in 1876 ;
the finale and the highest point of the opera is the song U boj, u boj   composed in 1866.
 
However, the reality was (at least slightly) different.
For example, there is a logical contradiction in the quoted text above,
and many other things ...
who, and how, could have seen the young lady being alone in the cellar,
if the explosion killed everyone around ?
 
Interestingly, some time after Nikola's death, his second wife Eva Rosenberg,  a reach Bohemian heiress remaried;
their son Jan Zrinski might have been, together with his uncle Vok von Rosenberg of the House of Romberk the organizer of the famous Tycho Brahe banquet in Prague in 1601.
Maybe, some of our Ceh friends could elaborate on that banquet ?
 
arguably, subic's action could have been anything of bravery > stupidity > madness
 
ottoman empire was near its very peak of power, the land of opportunity
and subic's countryman grand vezier Sokollu Mehmet Paşa was a good example
the favorite wife of
Hrrem Sultan was of Slavonic descent
their daughter Princess  Mihrimah was married to yet another Croat, grand vezier Rstem Pasha  of Mostar
 
unlike some recent military alliance, ottomans were building bridges in balkans,
for example Viegrad bridge (most Mehmed-pae Sokolovića ), Arslanagić bridge in Trebinje, Vizier's bridge in Podgorica, the bridge on epaKozja ćuprija in Sarajevo and Stari most  in Mostar. 
 
tragically, Nikola's descendants Zrinski - Frankopani were beheaded on Habsburgs order, while  Ilona Zrinyi, wife of I. Rkczi Ferenc and Thkly Imre died in Anatolia.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 21:38
would it be possible for someone to pick into hungarian royal archieves,
say between 1385-1397
sigismund, queen maria, palatine, garai, ...
 
although the arhive is written in latin, i understand, there is also a (at least part of) hungarian translation with explanations
someone from hungary might be in better position to explain local geography and customs ...
 
this may give us some additional insight into
 
1387 death of elizabeth kotromanic
1389 b of kosovo
1394 b of karanovasa
1395 b of rovine
1396 b of nicopolis
1397 krizevci massacre
 
...
 
one might expect sigismund might have done a lot of cleaning ...
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