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Topic Closed(Scary Imams and gullable) Muslims versus Denmark (and fascists)
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Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
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Posts: 4030 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: (Scary Imams and gullable) Muslims versus Denmark (and fascists)
    Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 19:52
Hahaha.

They had a few funny interviews too.

One woman said, "Give it time. These types of things are always our own fault somehow."

And an Imam said, "The line between free speech and hate speech is a blurry one that every society has a hard time making clear, but of one thing I am certain: It is not up to Bosniaks to determine where this line should be in Danish society."
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Posts: 3959 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 19:58
Originally posted by Illuminati


The west allows the KKK and nazi groups to march and make public statements. The KKK bastardizes Chritianity, but there isn't any international uproar over it like there has been over the danish cartoons. Religion is not void of ridicule.People need to accept that this is jsut how the Western world is. If they don't like it, then they can move. Freedom is universal, it's blasphemy on a scale far far larger than this to avert our freedoms to appease religion.


I agree with you and it is a vital part of Democracy to criticize any political belief, opinion, philosophy or religion. I do not think it is right what the paper is doing, but it is a cherished freedom that many of those in Muslim nations will never understand. I remember when they put a crucifix in a glass of urine and called it art. It made some Christians angry but not on the scale you see happening with Muslims around the world. They do the same to Christians and other faiths and I doubt if they will stop because if they cannot criticize others than they have truly lost their freedom of speech. If it became illegal where would it stop? Would criticism of other religions, even in a church setting, become a hate crime like in Victoria, Aussie land? Ministers in Jail for their criticism of Islam!!!
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Posts: 5711 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 20:03

Originally posted by eaglecap

[QUOTE=Illuminati] 

 Would criticism of other religions, even in a church setting, become a hate crime like in Victoria, Aussie land? Ministers in Jail for their criticism of Islam!!!

eaglecap, you have mentioned this before and I assumed you were referring to our anti-terrorist legislation which barred religious leaders from inciting hatred or breaking the law. Could you please provide me with further information regarding this claim, so far as I am aware the only action taken against clerics was against one imam who was helping plot an attack on the city of Melbourne.
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Posts: 666 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 21:02

and people say America isnt as free as Europe. if this was posted in America the government wouldnt say a thing because they cant.

You guys who are b****** and moaning about a COMIC are cry babies. Go top your room and cry it off.

There is a BIG problem in the Muslim world with crap like this. "What? news week ran a story in which the Koran was flushed down a toliet by america troops?...why we must riot and 15000 people have to die. And it isnt out fault for not being able to control our emotions."

Then in the Netherlands, van Goughs grandson is gunned down because he makes a critical video about Islam/.

People get over your selves. what a bunch of p******. You people really do not know what freedom of press or speech is.

about 'inciting hatred'. I guess you cant say anything about the Muslims because it makes them angry and want to kill people...Otherwise, if you're nice they wouldnt want to kill you. well that what i take such ridiculous laws to mean.

And finally, GROW UP.



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Posts: 2656 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 22:39
Has anyone seen the cartoon in question?  What does is say exactly?
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Posts: 949 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 23:34
here's a link to the cartoons

http://forum.newspaperindex.com/Mohammed-drawings-newspaper1 .jpg
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Posts: 198 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 00:13

Originally posted by Mira

They must have known these jokes are intolerable.  The publishing of these cartoons was deliberate, and was aimed at provoking Muslims.  I guess they didn't think the matter would be internationalized like this. 
These offensive cartoons weren't a joke.  They could have joked about OBL, if all they wanted to joke about was a bearded-man preaching religion in a distorted way, according to them.  That's not freedom of speech.  Can they deny the holocaust and call that freedom of speech?  If they can't mess with the Jews, they shouldn't think they can mess with Muslims, either.
I'm glad my country's boycotting Danish products.

That's not exactly the same thing: no jewish leader or jewish mass would ever overreact this way if YHW, or Moses, David, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah or ANY other jewish prophet or religious figure would have been ridiculized in a journal. The arabs, by doing such a case from nothing, and to a certain extent all the muslims (as we see here, even some "europeans") act as the arabs too, masses and lites altogether, proove they are still looking at things from a too middle-aged standpoint. When at least the highest layer of the inteligentsia of arab world will choose to grow up intelectually and abandon the belief in the revelation parleyed by Mahomed, then, they will educate cleverly the superstitious population (as it's the case in US and partially in Europe too) to became tolerant to freedom of speech. At some point in the future, that I suspect is not very far away, the world will have enough of the arabs/muslims yelling that their "sensibilities" are trampled upon. The cartoons should be seen as an atempt to open the minds of muslims in Europe, the same muslims that produced such a killer like Van Gogh murderer, by weaning them away from stultifying propaganda that they've been subjected to, literally since birth. It dosen't matter what muslims in their various hellholes in the third world think about that, that is a process of education of Europe's youth.

Il n'y a que les imbciles et les huitres qui adhrent - Paul Valry
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Posts: 697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 00:26
That's your problem.  If you don't mind your religions and religious figures being mocked, you're free.  We don't like that for ourselves, and we are free to react to the insult in any way we wish.  Expressing our anger is also freedom of speech.
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Posts: 198 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 00:28

If scientists wanted to plan a conference to disprove
Christianity, or Judaism, or Islam - fine, go ahead.
That's not disrespectful, that's simply disagreeing.
But if they want to instead hold a stage show with
burning crosses and blow-up dolls bent over in
Islamic prayer, that is disrespectful.

All that is about the impact to the public; or a targeted public. Consciently or not, these guys from an obscure scandinavian journal were doing the same tolerance-inducing "treatment" to young muslims in Europe, as the writings of voltaire, diderot and others, in european recent history, they have done too. Just ask Randi, if scientific conferences had ever had any effect an masses.

Il n'y a que les imbciles et les huitres qui adhrent - Paul Valry
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Posts: 7035 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 04:04

Originally posted by Mira

That's your problem.  If you don't mind your religions and religious figures being mocked, you're free.  We don't like that for ourselves, and we are free to react to the insult in any way we wish.  Expressing our anger is also freedom of speech.

Of course you are, childish though it is.

But not to harm people in the process.

 
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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 05:43
Originally posted by Genghis

Has anyone seen the cartoon in question?  What does is say exactly?


They are stupid, poor and lacking taste and even humor. They were published months ago, only thatv they have been republished in Norway now.

But that's not the problem. The problem is: can we bear that a bunch of fanatics sprung out from nowhere dictate which are our norms? No we can't. I suggest that NATO points its missiles to Mecca as defensive measure.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 06:54
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Mira

That's your problem.  If you don't mind your religions and religious figures being mocked, you're free.  We don't like that for ourselves, and we are free to react to the insult in any way we wish.  Expressing our anger is also freedom of speech.

Of course you are, childish though it is.

But not to harm people in the process.

Economic boycotts are political statements.  If you think the boycott is harmful, then we think an apology can fix that.  What does it take to publish an apology?  Freedom of speech is good and necessary as long as you don't intentionally promote lies to provoke racial and religious hatred amongst people.
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Posts: 697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 07:08

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by Genghis

Has anyone seen the cartoon in question?  What does is say exactly?


They are stupid, poor and lacking taste and even humor. They were published months ago, only thatv they have been republished in Norway now.

But that's not the problem. The problem is: can we bear that a bunch of fanatics sprung out from nowhere dictate which are our norms? No we can't. I suggest that NATO points its missiles to Mecca as defensive measure.

What a diplomatic solution!  I see where bin Laden got his ideas from.  So is it part of your 'norms' to insult others and provoke hatred and discrimination against people?  Civilized manners you got there, eh?

Anyway, the reason it's become a big thing all over the world is because Danish Muslims decided to "internationalize" it after the newspaper had refused to apologize.
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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 08:01
It is part of our allowance to mock anything. It's not about civilized or whatever but about freedom: got the idea?

That's their problem: I don't see why they have to apologize. I don't see why nobody has to demand any apology. You don't like it? Then don't look at it, don't buy that paper and that's all.

Essential concept: freedom.

If this is going to cause a breach between the Muslim World and Europe. Fine: we have nothing to loose. The last thing we can do is to force a citizen to apologize because somebody doesn't like his art.

Essential concept: freedom.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 1155 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 08:53

Originally posted by Mira

That's your problem.  If you don't mind your religions and religious figures being mocked, you're free.  We don't like that for ourselves, and we are free to react to the insult in any way we wish.  Expressing our anger is also freedom of speech.

Which is better? to over-react to an insult by step over danish flag, or to stay calm and answer of insulting in your local newspaper? i assume the second one. You sure could react to the insult any way you wish, but be sure you will lose your respect among the whole world. And so you will lower yourself to the crude level as the insulters.
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Posts: 1155 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 09:07

Originally posted by Mila

It's not really OT. The current event threads always
have to find somewhere to go, really.

I think it's interesting, what you've said. I believe it's
important to respect other religions but by respect I
think I'm referring to the same feelings you are? I
don't believe in them, I don't necessarily admire
them, I just accept other people's right to have their
beliefs not subjected to ridicule or insult - the same
as I demand for my own.

On a more personal note, for me it all revolves
around intentions. You could call me the most
beautiful woman in the world with a snarl in your
voice and I'll attack you for it, or you could softly
whisper the most evil things as a joke and I'll laugh.

Mila sorry to answer you so late, yesterday it was too late at night and i wanted to sleep, you know i am soooo lazy

Well today if you want to criticize an ideology, specially religins, the followers accuse you are insulting their beliefs, mostly becouse they want to shut you up.So the word "respect" in my ear clink like "don't criticize us, don't talk about our faith, don't make us doubt" and ofcourse it means you shut up!.

as i said befor i don't want to respect some ideologies, although i would never insult or offend them,and  i respect followers of all ideologies as humans.

This was my main post:

Originally posted by Maziar

Another question, maybe OT but anyway,

I read from everyone says "have respect to religions" why should i respect all another people's ideologies?  I don't insult or offend them, but i don't want to respect them.

I dislike communism, i respect communists as humans and i don't want to respect the communism as an ideology, should i? the same thing with Religions or capitalism or whatever. I don't want to respect them and i think it is my sovereign right, could you respect fascism or nazism?
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Posts: 63 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 09:35

Oh dear...chemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>

This case is completely getting out of control because of misinformation from the Danish imams and a lack of action from the Danish government that has reacted to late.>>

Not that Danish government should apologies and punish Jyllands Posten (the now notorious newspaper), which some of the Muslim governments demands in order to stop the boycott. As it has already been said in this thread, the Danish government will do it, because of the freedom of speech. If the government apologised or maybe even punished Jyllands Posten, it would be censorship, which the Scandinavians believe is a tool that only should be used in a dictatorship. Polls have also shown that the Danish population do not think that the government should apologies. >>

The Prime minister has personally stated that he doesnt like the drawings and what makes me really furious is that the Muslim delegation that went have created a false picture of how the Danish government and the Danes in general threat the Danish Muslims. >>

It is correct that a few members of the Danish Parliament have described Islam as cancer etc BUT these few members (cant stand them) are the most RIGHT WINGED and most ISLAM-HOSTILE members of the entire parliament. Even the party, which is considered to be the most Islam-hostile party (I dont like them as well) find that their opinions are way out of line. >>

It pisses me of that the delegation has used quotes from members of the government that represent a very small minority to describe the situation in Denmark. >>

The latest development in the case is that the delegation has said that the pictures are only a snapshot of how the Danish medias are harassing the Muslims with pictures etc. I can guarantee you that if you look through the newspapers you will find no such things. >>

I am afraid that the Muslims think that the Danes like the drawings, when they do think they should apologies. Even though there have not been any polls about it yet, I am certain that the majority of the Danes dislike the drawings, but when we have freedom of speech Jyllands Posten have the right to post what they want even though many people find it insulting and harassing. >>

Jyllands Posten have also said that they are sorry that Muslims are feeling insulted by the drawings:http://www.jp.dk/meninger/ncartikel:aid=3527646>>

 >>

I think it is wrong to boycott the Danish brands why should you punish a lot employees working for the companies being boycott, when a newspaper they have nothing to do with publish drawing that Muslims find insulting?>>

Experts believe that the boycott will cost about 11200 jobs. Not that it has any significant influence on the Danish economy, which is very strong at the moment, but I just feel sorry for the employees>>

I am sorry that I do not have that many links, but there is not much point in referring to the news in the Danish newspapers.>>

The biggest question at the moment is how the solve the conflict, now that it is has escalated, which I believe the Danish government should have done months ago with a information campaign long before it has gone as far as it has now. That would have saved us a lot of problems.

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Posts: 6003 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 09:56
Freedom of speech is good and necessary as long as you don't intentionally promote lies to provoke racial and religious hatred amongst people.


Does that apply to those touring Imams too?
Deliberatly showing intentionaly offensive (for they can be interpreted in no other way, at least the originals bar one are tame and weren't intended so much as to spred lies as they were a cheap distastefull publicity stunt) pictures that were never ever even published in the newspaper with the deliberate intent of provoking a response in the middle east, in what has effictivly amounted to incitement to hatred and even violence in all but name.
Rest assured, they most likely won't have to account for their actions.



Anyways, from all this I learned a Danish proverb - "an orange in the Turban", means 'good luck'. Is that right?
Arrrgh!!"
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Posts: 4030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 10:52
Ahhh Moller...you kind of, sort of, a little bit won me
over.
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Posts: 697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 11:10
Originally posted by Maziar

Which is better? to over-react to an insult by step over danish flag, or to stay calm and answer of insulting in your local newspaper? i assume the second one. You sure could react to the insult any way you wish, but be sure you will lose your respect among the whole world. And so you will lower yourself to the crude level as the insulters.


That's your personal opinion.  I personally see it in a more positive light.  Muslims have always been passive, and accepted insults slapped at them left and right.  The worldwide reactions are good to show that we do get offended, and we do get pretty upset, too.

You earn respect, you don't demand it.  If you think Muslims have lost their respect, I think you're wrong.  They would have lost their respect had the millions around the world not stood up for their Muslims brethrens in the Denmark.

Of course, we all see things from a different prespective.  Denmark lost its respect, especially after its queen came out with anti-Islam remarks last year.  The cartoons were merely the 'hay that broke the camel's back,' as we say.
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