Armenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide?

Lets just blame the Romans for causing the Armenian Genocide, ok? Now lets move on with our lives and get rid of this ugly topic

OK, fine, the Turks are responsible for the Genocide, and the only people that say that it really was not a genocide are the nationalists


Boo Romans

Originally posted by prsn41ife maybe they are russian soldiers who found the graves. there are pictures of allied soldiers after they liberated death camps of the nazi's. they discovered the massacres and took pictures. even though german soldiers arent in the pictures, it doesnt mean that the germans did do it.

If Russian soldiers were posing in front of the dead people, then the number one suspect of this crime is the Russian Army, not Turkish!

And it is us who discovered this fact, noone would understand the mistake in the picture.

Edited by barish

Originally posted by bg_turk Originally posted by prsn41ife i cannot, but im sure experts on the subject can. There are images by Armin Wegner, a german medic in the Ottoman Empire, and the location and dates for these images is known. In the case of the image posted above none of this information is available. It is not even on the Armenian National Institute database: http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photointro.html Anyway, I am looking forward to an expert explanation for the location and date of this photograph.

And how would you like those explanations to be?! The world saw video from the destruction of the Armenian grave stones in Nakhichevan and yet people said that it was falsified evidence and the site could be anywhere in the world! So no matter what, denying something is quite simple. All it takes is to say "No".

I think that the work of Armin Wegner is quite well known to the world. And him being German meant that (at least in those days) he is quite a relaible source as an ally member of the Ottoman power. His images are very well documented and if you would bother to verify it (if you really mean it) you could either write to ANI and ask them for verification.

Forumers:

328 posts on 17 pages.  Has anything been decided here?  Has anyone been convinced of anything?

How many topics have there been on this same issue?

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 Forumers: 328 posts on 17 pages.  Has anything been decided here?  Has anyone been convinced of anything? How many topics have there been on this same issue?

Know exactly what you mean! But the important part is not to convince, but not allow misconception and false information go unchallenged.

As far as it goes for the picture in question: who says that it shows the killers beside the victims? That is an assumption made by members here and on the wiki page. It could easily be Russian troops (I'm gussing from the hat on the soldier on the far right side, middle row) who have discovered slaughtered Armenian bodies. Nothing else.

Originally posted by bg_turk Originally posted by armenica  But the important part is not to convince, but not allow misconception and false information go unchallenged. Precisely! I agree with you. As far as it goes for the picture in question: who says that it shows the killers beside the victims? That is an assumption made by members here and on the wiki page. It could easily be Russian troops (I'm gussing from the hat on the soldier on the far right side, middle row) who have discovered slaughtered Armenian bodies. Nothing else. Could you please elaborate. Your words seem to be speculations and I personally believe that the image above is precisely in the category of misconception and false information that you have been saying should not remain unchallenged.

What is it that you wish me to elaborate? To in some way hint that these could be Armenian armed "bandits" and the bodies belong to Turks? Could be... But since there are no evidence of any sort and no one seems to be sure who is who, I just continued in the same direction which the picture suggested in the first place.

But why do you cling to this picture in particular? There are plenty of verified pictures (among others on the link you refered to) showing massacred Armenians.

Originally posted by armenica What is it that you wish me to elaborate? To in some way hint that these could be Armenian armed "bandits" and the bodies belong to Turks? Could be... But since there are no evidence of any sort and no one seems to be sure who is who, I just continued in the same direction which the picture suggested in the first place.

I do not know who the dead people on this picture are. And since you said you believed they were Armenian and "nothing else", I just wanted you to explain in more detail why you thought so.

But why do you cling to this picture in particular? There are plenty of verified pictures (among others on the link you refered to) showing massacred Armenians.

Were you not the one who said that false evidence and misconceptions should be challenged?

I know there are other authentic images of massacred Armenians, but this one is clearly not one of them.

Edited by bg_turk

Infact I think, you cannot be sure about death people. They can be both armenian or turkish. At that time, they were  same.

 

Edited by Mortaza

     The fact that the only solid argument against the genocide is a debate over a picture tells us a lot about the facts on each side. No one has even attempted to answer my question...it is addressed to anyone who doesn't believe the events should be called "genocide":

"The vast majority of the deaths were due to the "irresponsible relocations", and the only basis of these relocations was that they were Armenian (this was the only pretext of being relocated). So it is the relocation of an ethnic group (not those responsible for fighting, just those who belong to the same ethnic background), so it means the government was targeting a group based on ethnic background rather than responsibility for a crime. If the government targets a particular ethnic group for relocation only on the basis that they belong to that group, and somehow ends up killing over a million of them due to neglect or "lack of resources", thats the very definition of genocide. If this doesn't constitute genocide then nothing does. Please tell me what genocide is then?"




     bg_turk,

     I know you believe a genocide took place, but you claim that the genocide was mutual. You're going to blame a "genocide against Turks" on some guerillas who were kicked out of their cities and had their families murdered by Turkish soldiers? A genocide is something planned by a government entity which plans to wipe out an entire group based on ethnicity or religion. Armenian guerillas who were kicked out of their homes who went of and killed Turks does not fall under this category. Their action was spontaneous. Doesn't matter if its wrong, its SPONTANEOUS REACTION, NOT PLANNED, and its definitely not being carried out by a government entity.

     The fate of the Armenians on the other hand, was decided by government order (relocations based solely on ethnic background), and it was planned (unless you mean to tell me relocations are not planned ). So how do you compare the killing of Armenians to the killing of Turks? They are both horrible, but one was planned and carried out by a GOVERNMENT ENTITY, while the other was the spontaneous (although unjustified) reaction by groups of individuals independent of any government order. How does the killing of Turks constitute as genocide?

Edited by ArmenianSurvival