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Topic ClosedArmenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Armenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide?
    Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 13:44
Oh, there is "agree" and "disagree" in everything.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 15:18
Originally posted by Mortaza

Ottoman Turkey committed genocide towards the Armenian population! That is a FACT!

Infact young turks committed this, and well armenians also supported young turks coup. Maybe you should apologise each other.

Sorry, but I fail to follow the reasoning in your suggestion. Do you claim that Armenians are to blame themselves for supporting the Young Turks? The Young Turk movement (Ittihad ve Terakki) started as championing democratic values, but when the triumvirate of Jemal, Talaat and Enver slowly grasped the power (the very exact process in the Nazi Germany) the initial values of the party were soon put aside for racial and chauvinism values. That's when it went wrong.

Originally posted by barish

The thing I disagree with you guys is the definition of a genocide.

According to you, what is the definition of genocide then? And how does it not apply to the Armenian "massacres"?

And I agree with Artaxiad about this: when it comes to genocide, you can not just "agree to disagree". You can't be "a bit pregnant". You're either pregnant or not.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 15:32

Sorry, but I fail to follow the reasoning in your suggestion. Do you claim that Armenians are to blame themselves for supporting the Young Turks? The Young Turk movement (Ittihad ve Terakki) started as championing democratic values, but when the triumvirate of Jemal, Talaat and Enver slowly grasped the power (the very exact process in the Nazi Germany) the initial values of the party were soon put aside for racial and chauvinism values. That's when it went wrong.

so why are you accusing turks but not armenians? Infact armenians supported them more than turks. So why are we more guilty than armenians? is It our guilt because they changed?

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 16:04
Originally posted by Mortaza

Sorry, but I fail to follow the reasoning in your suggestion. Do you claim that Armenians are to blame themselves for supporting the Young Turks? The Young Turk movement (Ittihad ve Terakki) started as championing democratic values, but when the triumvirate of Jemal, Talaat and Enver slowly grasped the power (the very exact process in the Nazi Germany) the initial values of the party were soon put aside for racial and chauvinism values. That's when it went wrong.

so why are you accusing turks but not armenians? Infact armenians supported them more than turks. So why are we more guilty than armenians? is It our guilt because they changed?

???? What is it that you're implying?!??? Armenians killed Armenians? Armenians supported Turks in the attempt to make Turkey a better place to live by removing Abdul Hamid II, but when the Young Turks started to kill everyone, was that Armenian's fault?

To be honest, I don't understand at all what you're trying to get at.

Armenians thought they were supporting reform lovers within the Ottoman Empire. And there were Turks wihtin Ittihad ve Terakki who firmly believed in that as well, but they were put out of the picture when the triumvirate ceased power. Not all Turks apporved the Armenian Genocide, you know. But it happened anyway.

I have heard people blame it on the Kurds, on the Western powers and even fanatic Trukish elements. But this is the first time I hear that one would blame it on Armenians...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 07:32
ABC TV- AUSTRALIA: TURKEY - FACING UP TO THE PAST
Reporter: David Hardaker

Foreign Correspondent - Tuesday at 9:20pm
Broadcast: 28/02/2006

LEAD STORY
SERIES 15
EPISODE 22

Synopsis

"What I said is true, legally I have the right to say it, and historically and morally this has to be said, if we are decent human beings."

Orhan Pamuk, Turkey's best-known modern novelist, was until recently a national hero, feted both inside and outside the country.

However, as Pamuk explains to David Hardaker, he has become a pariah virtually overnight for daring to break a 90 year old taboo - talking openly about Turkey's role in the deaths of more than a
million Armenians.

Sometimes known as "the sick man of Europe", Turkey suffers from a deep-seated insecurity about its identity. The heavy-handed state response to Pamuk's remarks to a Swiss newspaper shows why the country faces so many hurdles when it comes to joining the European Union.

"What Orhan Pamuk has done here is directly insult the Turkish nation and the very idea of being Turkish," says populist lawyer Kemal Kerincsiz. "He is twisting history."

Despite the official view of most independent historians, a majority of Turks believe that there was no genocide of Armenians in 1915.

What's worse, to talk about Armenian genocide is to question the deeds of the nation's founding fathers, including Gallipoli hero Kemal Attaturk.

Were it simply a war of words, probably none of this would matter much. But Pamuk's books have been burned, his photo shredded, and there have been threats to his life. He was even forced to leave the country for a time.

The Turkish state is also vigorously pursuing those who dare to publicly question the official line. Pamuk was charged under the notorious Article 301 - which makes it an offence to insult the Turkish state, and carries a six month jail sentence. His case became a cause celebre in Europe, and the charge was eventually dropped, but Kemal Kerincsiz is appealing. Dozens of other lesser known people have also been charged with the same offence, and we meet some of them in this story.

As Hardaker reports, the cases highlights Turkey's identity crisis and forces Turks to confront their past in a way which until now, they have refused to do.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2006/s1576063.htm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 15:13
Originally posted by erci

if it was a genocide what happened to the Armenians in west? and where are the graves? are they vanished as well?


     So the Nazis made graves for all the Jews, right? If they don't value the lives of their victims, then why would they use resources to make graves for victims, when all it does is leave behind evidence AGAINST themselves? I'd love to see pictures of Jewish graves made by Nazis, since all those who committed genocide took the time to honor the dead by burying their victims.

Originally posted by erci

I'm not saying this because I'm a Turk but noone can convince me with a few pictures, some documents and websites that created by Armenians and greeks which many of them are proved to be fake.


     Again, you're not paying attention to the bulk of information, which is collected and analyzed by non-Armenians. This notion of "all evidence of the genocide is made up by Armenians and Greeks" is a very narrow way of looking at the subject, and it makes your paranoia and bias evident to everyone. I only say this because its obvious that the bulk of information is not derived from websites made by Armenians and Greeks.

Originally posted by erci

People died on both sides.Even Armenian sources say that Armenians attacked first.Losses on Armenians side were more due to exile.


     People did die on both sides, however, I would like to see Armenian sources (sensible Armenian sources) that say the Armenians attacked first.

Originally posted by erci

I need more than that to believe that it was genocide


     Of course you do. You needed the Ottomans to advertise the genocide with billboards. This is the only type of evidence that the Turkish argument leaves to the imagination, for the reasons I posted above (total disregard to sources which point to the contrary of what you were raised to believe, etc.)


      Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one has ever explained why they deported women and children, since they were the majority of people who were deported and died. If causing the death of women and children based on ethnicity is not genocide (they were only deported on the basis that they were Armenian, nothing else), then what is genocide?


Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 16:25

Oh come on erci.. Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise what is termed the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was  genocide, on the alleged basis that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I.

Envar Pasha ordered that all Armenian recruits in the Ottoman forces be disarmed, demobilized and assigned to labor camps. Most of the Armenian recruits were either executed or turned into road laborers - few survived.



Even though nearly all the camps, including all the major ones, were open air, the rest of the mass killings in other minor camps, was not limited to direct killings; but also to mass burning, poisoning, and drowning.

I still can't beleive that many Turks claim that this wasn't a genocide. Over a million Armenians died..C'mon, it was a holocaust. As ArmenianSurvival wrote earlier in the thread: 10, 000 Bosnians die and it's a genocide, 1,000,000 Armenians die, and it's a massacre. Sorry, but this is my opinion.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 16:28

Jay, can you please describe what the image you have posted depicts, what is your source for it?

The uniforms the soldiers are wearing are certainly not those of the Ottoman army, but belong to Russian battalions.

There much more authentic images of Armenian victims, I am surprised you have chosen this one.



Edited by bg_turk
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 16:38
That picture which I posted earlier was found on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Armeniangenocide_deadpeop le.jpg

Doesn't give a description of the picture, but I beleive it was the killings of the Armenians in the Ottoman army.

Edited by Jay.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 16:42

Originally posted by Jay.

That picture which I posted earlier was found on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Armeniangenocide_deadpeop le.jpg

Doesn't give a description of the picture, but I beleive it was the killings of the Armenians in the Ottoman army.

I removed the first picture

Like I already said, this picture does not represent victims of the genocide, I questioned its uses and what it truly represent. In my belief it is an Ottoman army contingent who after fighting have removed the dress of a Russian white battalion defeat to than dessring with their victims uniform and shutting a picture of them. It could have been Russian Armenian battalion fighting for their Tsar or etc., but I doubt this picture represent genocide victims. Fad (ix) 16:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Armenian_Genocide/Archive_ 7#I_removed_the_first_picture

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 17:14
They look like the "Whites",the army of the Tsar,although i do not know what uniforms the Ottomans were wearing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 17:18


This picture was disproved. Check the hats of the soldiers. They are definitely not Ottoman soldiers.

They are probably Russian soldiers; the ones who wears different hats are officers.

Ahh, but who cares? Isn't it against Turks? So what's the problem?

Genocide is not about numbers. Forget it.

I think we all agree that it is one of the most sad and unfortunate events in history.

Not calling it genocide does not make it less horrible.

We are not trying to justify what Ottomans did.

What caused the deaths of Armenians were a civil war between Turkish and Armenian people and a irresponsible relocation by Ottoman government.

But it's not a genocide.

Edited by barish
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 17:44
Originally posted by Jay.


i had disproved this image, you can clearly see of some sodliers hat's these arent Ottoman but Russian.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 17:46
Originally posted by barish

Ahh, but who cares? Isn't it against Turks? So what's the problem?


     This falls under something I've already said:

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Again, you're not paying attention to the bulk of information, which is collected and analyzed by non-Armenians. This notion of "all evidence of the genocide is made up by Armenians and Greeks" is a very narrow way of looking at the subject, and it makes your paranoia and bias evident to everyone. I only say this because its obvious that the bulk of information is not derived from websites made by Armenians and Greeks.


     Similarly, assuming that all information is "Anti-Turkish" in nature is the same type of thinking.

Originally posted by barish

What caused the deaths of Armenians were a civil war between Turkish and Armenian people and a irresponsible relocation by Ottoman government.


     There is no evidence of a civil war between Armenians and Turks. But lets assume there was, what caused the vast majority of the deaths were the irresponsible relocations, and the only basis of these relocations was that they were Armenian (this was the only pretext of being relocated). So it is the relocation of an ethnic group (not those responsible for fighting, just those who belong to the same ethnic background), so it means the government was targeting a group based on ethnic background rather than responsibility for a crime. If the government targets a particular ethnic group for relocation only on the basis that they belong to that group, and somehow ends up killing over a million of them due to neglect or "lack of resources", thats the very definition of genocide. If this doesn't constitute genocide then nothing does. Please tell me what genocide is then?


Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 18:17
Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Jay.


i had disproved this image, you can clearly see of some sodliers hat's these arent Ottoman but Russian.

maybe they are russian soldiers who found the graves.

there are pictures of allied soldiers after they liberated death camps of the nazi's. they discovered the massacres and took pictures. even though german soldiers arent in the pictures, it doesnt mean that the germans did do it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 20:21
Originally posted by prsn41ife

maybe they are russian soldiers who found the graves.

maybe, or maybe not. How do you know these are not muslims massacred by the Russian Armenian battalions?



Edited by bg_turk
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 20:27
That's because I found the picture on Wikipedia - Armenian Genocide. And, the caption was: Casualties of the Genocide.
Why on earth would those be muslims massacred by the Russian Armenian battalions?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 20:32
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by prsn41ife

maybe they are russian soldiers who found the graves.

maybe, or maybe not. How do you know these are not muslims massacred by the Russian Armenian battalions?

how do you know that they are not.

by your logic, we can say that all the pictures of the holocaust are wrong.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 20:40
Originally posted by prsn41ife

how do you know that they are not.

by your logic, we can say that all the pictures of the holocaust are wrong.

There are other authentic images of killings against armenians but this one in particular is not one of them.

In the case of the images documenting the Holocaust, it is known where the image was taken, by whom it was taken and when it was taken.

Can you provide the same information for the image above? Where was it taken and when was it taken?



Edited by bg_turk
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 20:42
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by prsn41ife

how do you know that they are not.

by your logic, we can say that all the pictures of the holocaust are wrong.

There are other authentic images of killings against armenians but this one in particular is not one of them.

In the case of the images documenting the Holocaust, it is known where the image was taken, by whom it was taken and when it was taken.

Can you provide the same information for the image above? Where was it taken and when was it taken?

i cannot, but im sure experts on the subject can.

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