Armenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide?

Originally posted by armenica Originally posted by bg_turk What percentage of those that were deporated actually survived the journey through the desert? First of all: Let's assume that Turkish authorities were actually protecting the Armenians from the revolutionary groups. Why would you protect women, children and elderly but moving them into a desert?! Second: there are lots of eyewitness acounts (survivors, Arab nomads, Arab inhabitants along the route, consular reports etc.) which certify that the Turkish regular forces did actively take part in the killing. The Kurdish and other Muslims raiding groups wrapped it up. Those who survived the tourment on the road were finished off when reaching the Syrian Desert anyhow. But this is far from the only way. The governor of Trabizond wired Constantinople and protested how the women, children and elderly of the city had been loaded onborad two cargo ships, sailed for the high sea, and returned empty two hours later.

There are cases where muslims have been locked up in mosques, and the building set on fire while they were still alive. Muslims corpses have been dumped into the wells, and many of them have now been excavated in accordance with eye witness acounts. The autoriciites comitted by armenains and russians are very  well documented. I am not stating these to justify the dumping of armenain innceont civilians into the sea, I am just doing it to put in context, where innceont muslims have suffered equally tragic crimes at the hads of armenain extremists.

Let us go back to my question. I am simply interested to know what percentage of the armenains that were foced into exile acctually survived. A significant portion of them survived, since what today is the armenian diaspora, is basically the survivors of those events, is that not right?

If the purpose of the Empire was the total extermination and annihilation of the armenian race, as was the case with the Holocaust, then why did so many of the people , that could have easily been killed at the hands of the turkish mililtary,  survived? Please, note that we are not talking about a few armenians who were lucky enough to escape, but we are talking about the decendants of the entire armenian diaspora, which today numbers to up to several million.

Also how many muslims died during the same period in the same area? If my memory serves me right, you quote a number in the range of several thousand, what is your source for this? Are you aware of any research done on the topic and can you quote respectable non-armenian sources?

From 1870 til 1920  the turkish race suffered a human loss of 5.5 million. Does this loss not merit to be called a Turkish Genocide as well?

Out of 2,000,000 Armenians of the Ottoman Empire about 1,200,000 lost their lives, while about 100,000 remained "Armenian" mostly in Constantinople. Another 100,000 150,000 were forcibly Turkified. You then do the math.

The Armenians in diaspora are not only from the period of the Armenian Genocide; only the majority of the Armenians in France, Syria, Libanon, Iraq and Jordan can be counted to this group.

http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?7= =292=

The number of Armenians in the world in 1914 was approximately 4,000,000, roughly distributed thus: 2,000,000 in the Ottoman Empire, 1 700,000 in the Russian Empire, 100,000 in Persia, and 200,000 elsewhere.

1,300,000 lived in Eastern Armenia (Kars, Nakhichevan, Karabakh and Akhalkalaki) while 1,400,000 lived in Western Armenia and Cilicia.

The loss of the "Turkish race" was not the act of the government of Armenia. The Armenian Genocide was the directed act of the Ottoman Empire. If Turkey lost lives in the WWI, it was because the joined the war, not because other nations implemented ethnic cleansing aginst them.

Edited by armenica

Originally posted by mamikon " The autoriciites comitted by armenains and russians are very  well documented." By who? The Turkish government? No one is denying that Turks died at the hands of Armenians. But those who died were far, far, far smaller in number...and died as a result of Armenian retaliation to the Genocide.

Not the Turkish Government, the entire turkish nation.

"if the purpose of the Empire was the total extermination and annihilation of the armenian race, as was the case with the Holocaust, then why did so many of the people , that could have easily been killed at the hands of the turkish mililtary,  survived? Please, note that we are not talking about a few armenians who were lucky enough to escape, but we are talking about the decendants of the entire armenian diaspora, which today numbers to up to several million." It wasnt few Armenians who escaped. If 1.5 million of them died, then 0.5 million have escaped. While it is true that the Diaspora in majority contains the survivors of those Armenians, there are also Armenians who have left Armenia durin 1980s and 1990s.

Thank you for the clarification.

The Ottoman government was not as organized as the Nazu regime was, so they couldnt round up every Armenians... " From 1870 til 1920  the turkish race suffered a human loss of 5.5 million. Does this loss not merit to be called a Turkish Genocide as well?" First of all I dont think the number is 5.5 million. But, what does this have to with the Armenians. How is it the fault of an Armenian child that Turks died in the Balkans in 1870. Dont forget that Turks were the ones who conquered others, and the separatists in those countries were fighting for their independence, although I am not saying that is justifies killing civilian populations, especially women and children.

I did not blame the Armenians specifically for this loss of human life. They were but one of the many reasons that caused this. Just wanted to pu things in perspective and in context. The Turkish race (or maybe the more correct term is the Muslim race) had suffered a greater loss in absolute terms than the Armenian race. Had Turkey lost the war against Russia and Armenia, the human loss for the Turks would have been even greater.

now you answer this question...why are there 40 thousand Armenians in Turkey now, while a decade ago there were more than 2 million? Who, if not the government has the power to eliminate almost the whole population?

Armenians were exiled and ethnically cleansed from their homes, just like there are not turks in the Azeri territories occupied by Armenia. The only difference is that Armenians have suffered a far larger mortality rate during their exhile, which may qualify this "relocation" as a genocide.

In comparison the mortality rate for Turks exhiled from Bulgaria in 1878 during the Russian intervention was maybe slightly lower but it was equally catastrophic, half of all turks (mainly those that were in mixed region and in the big cities) were exhiled (bulgarians would say they fled for fear of reprisals), and every second of those exhiled  was massacred or perished on the way. Many died of hunger because the Empire had no resources to deal with the influx of refugees.

Only compact purely turkish regions like the Eastern Rhodopes and the Deliorman remained intact.  Maybe in comparison to us the disadvantage the Armenians had was that they were not an absolute majority in any of the regions so they were much more vulnerable.

 

Edited by bg_turk

Originally posted by bg_turk Of course the 5.5 million number does not refer to the muslims killed by armenians, it refers to the total turkish loss all over the empire from the same time period, and Armenians defintely contributed to this toll by their fight for independence, and Turkish historians estimate the number of Turks killed by armenians is 500-600000.

What Turkish casualties have to do with the Armenian Genocide is still a question to me. Armenian 80 years old women and smal children in Van and Sasoun had most likely never even heard about Balkan.

Thanks God for MaCarthy and Halacoglu, because without them I don't know how you would have made it this far denying the whole thing.

And finally, Armenians NEVER demanded or requested indepence prior to the Armenian Genocide. This is well documented in the Armenian requests and demands in the treaties of San Stefano and later in the Berlin Congress. All they demanded was implenetation of reforms in Armenian provinces and cultural autonomy WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE!!! These are available on the net if you wish to read them. 

Armenians never had all the ressources necessary to carry out a state level genocide. They were barely able to take care of themselves, especially back in 1915.

Originally posted by bg_turk Their country was in ruins and invaded from all sides. They were struggling to form their state from the ruins of the Ottoman empire.

I thought that happened after the Ottoman empire sought out to massacre the Armenians, and after it lost the War and signed the S�vres treaty.

Kokand? What are you talking about DayI?

Our Turkish friends should understand that nobody is directly blaiming them for the Genocide. They must understand though that the recognition assists in the better prevention of new Genocides.


Raphael Lemkin  (April 1946) on his definition of Genocide stated:

''A ruthless regime finds it easiest to commit genocide in time of war'' ... and this has been the case of the Young Turks.

Whoever denies the Armenian Genocide is either amnesiac, blind or both.

Originally posted by bg_turk From 1870 til 1920  the turkish race suffered a human loss of 5.5 million.

In the time of the Armenian Genocide were killed roughly 1,5 milion armenians. All the World knows that !

In the time of WWII were killed roughly 6 milions jews. All the World knows that !

From 1870 til 1920  the turkish race suffered a human loss of 5.5 million. Only bg_turk knows that !     

 

I don`t want to offend someone, this is just a joke.

Edited by The Chargemaster

Originally posted by DayI Originally posted by The Chargemaster Originally posted by bg_turk From 1870 til 1920  the turkish race suffered a human loss of 5.5 million. In the time of the Armenian Genocide were killed roughly 1,5 milion armenians. All the World knows that ! I dont care what "all the world" knows but what i care is the number of the victims, in the ottoman era whasnt there even 1.5 million armenians living in...

That's a very healthy attitude not carying about what the entire world says (sarcasm...)


http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?7= 1=247

At the same time, the Ottoman government was busy altering the statistics to show a smaller Armenian population in the Armenian provinces, so that they could be described as an insignificant minority. 108

Before the Armenian Question arose, the official Ottoman estimate of the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire was fairly significant. The official book of Turkey, compiled by Sallahedin Beg in 1867, puts the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire at 2,400,000. 109 As soon as the Armenian Question emerged, in the context of the Russian-Ottoman war of 1877-1878, the Ottoman official books showed an astonishing decrease in the number of Armenians, thanks to manipulated statistics.

During the 1880 negotiations with the European powers, the crown prince of the Ottoman Empire, Abedin Pasha, submitted the population figures of the six Armenian provinces in the empire, Erzurum, Van, Bitlis, Diyarbakir, Kharpout and Sivas (also Aleppo, Adana and Trabizond), 620,000 Muslims (Turks, Kurds and Arabs) 727,000 Armenians and 283,000 other Christians.

This aberration did not escape unnoticed. The joint letter which the ambassadors of the major powers addressed to the Ottoman government on September 7, 1880, included the following: "Among the characteristics of these provinces is the largeness of the number of the Christian population in the majority of the parts" and "that alone is proof that the Sublime Port is trying to decrease the signification of this paragraph [paragraph 61 in the Berlin Treaty] and this he wishes to achieve by comparing the number of Christian inhabitants to the total population. However, the relation which the Sublime Port states is in conflict with the accurate figures at hand and the major powers regard them as incorrect." 110

Sir Edwin Pears observed that the total population in these six Armenian provinces was approximately 2 600 000, of which around 1 200 000 were Armenians. 111 The Armenians had a relative though not an absolute majority, while the Muslim population in these provinces consisted of a mix of Turks and Kurds in equal halves. On the other hand, the Armenians had an absolute majority in at least two out of the six Armenian provinces, in Van and Bitlis (old Moush).

Subsequently the Ottoman Empire was very careful in revising these figures to suit their purpose. The figures presented by Vital Cuinet, who worked for the Ottoman government, in his publication about Asian Turkey (1890, 1894), were assembled with great care to make the Armenians appear an insignificant minority in the Armenian provinces. 113


108) Se L. de Contenson, Chrétiens et Musulmans, Paris, 1901, p. 216-217

109) Salaheddin Bey, La Turquie à l'Exposition Universelle de 1867, Paris, 1867, p. 216-217

110) Blue Book, Turkey, 1881, nr. 6, p. 140-146

111) Sir Edwin Pears, Life of Sultan Abdul-Hamid, London, 1917, p. 215

113) About the credibility of Vital Cuinet's figure refer to H. Lynch, Armenia, London, 1901, vol. II, p. 79 and also L. de Contenson, Chrétiens et Musulmans, Paris, 1901, p. 125


Edited by armenica