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Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005
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Topic: Armenian killings - mutual massacres or genocide? Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 13:44 |
Oh, there is "agree" and "disagree" in everything.
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armenica
Knight
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Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 15:18 |
Originally posted by Mortaza
Ottoman Turkey committed genocide towards the Armenian population! That is a FACT!
Infact young turks committed this, and well armenians also supported young turks coup. Maybe you should apologise each other.
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Sorry, but I fail to follow the reasoning in your suggestion. Do you claim that Armenians are to blame themselves for supporting the Young Turks? The Young Turk movement (Ittihad ve Terakki) started as championing democratic values, but when the triumvirate of Jemal, Talaat and Enver slowly grasped the power (the very exact process in the Nazi Germany) the initial values of the party were soon put aside for racial and chauvinism values. That's when it went wrong.
Originally posted by barish
The thing I disagree with you guys is the definition of a genocide. |
According to you, what is the definition of genocide then? And how does it not apply to the Armenian "massacres"?
And I agree with Artaxiad about this: when it comes to genocide, you can not just "agree to disagree". You can't be "a bit pregnant". You're either pregnant or not.
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Mortaza
Tsar
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Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 15:32 |
Sorry, but I fail to follow the reasoning in your suggestion. Do you claim that Armenians are to blame themselves for supporting the Young Turks? The Young Turk movement (Ittihad ve Terakki) started as championing democratic values, but when the triumvirate of Jemal, Talaat and Enver slowly grasped the power (the very exact process in the Nazi Germany) the initial values of the party were soon put aside for racial and chauvinism values. That's when it went wrong.
so why are you accusing turks but not armenians? Infact armenians supported them more than turks. So why are we more guilty than armenians? is It our guilt because they changed?
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armenica
Knight
Joined: 06-Sep-2005
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Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 16:04 |
Originally posted by Mortaza
Sorry, but I fail to follow the reasoning in your suggestion. Do you claim that Armenians are to blame themselves for supporting the Young Turks? The Young Turk movement (Ittihad ve Terakki) started as championing democratic values, but when the triumvirate of Jemal, Talaat and Enver slowly grasped the power (the very exact process in the Nazi Germany) the initial values of the party were soon put aside for racial and chauvinism values. That's when it went wrong.
so why are you accusing turks but not armenians? Infact armenians supported them more than turks. So why are we more guilty than armenians? is It our guilt because they changed?
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???? What is it that you're implying?!??? Armenians killed Armenians? Armenians supported Turks in the attempt to make Turkey a better place to live by removing Abdul Hamid II, but when the Young Turks started to kill everyone, was that Armenian's fault?
To be honest, I don't understand at all what you're trying to get at.
Armenians thought they were supporting reform lovers within the Ottoman Empire. And there were Turks wihtin Ittihad ve Terakki who firmly believed in that as well, but they were put out of the picture when the triumvirate ceased power. Not all Turks apporved the Armenian Genocide, you know. But it happened anyway.
I have heard people blame it on the Kurds, on the Western powers and even fanatic Trukish elements. But this is the first time I hear that one would blame it on Armenians...
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armenica
Knight
Joined: 06-Sep-2005
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Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 07:32 |
ABC TV- AUSTRALIA: TURKEY - FACING UP TO THE PAST
Reporter: David Hardaker
Foreign Correspondent - Tuesday at 9:20pm
Broadcast: 28/02/2006
LEAD STORY
SERIES 15
EPISODE 22
Synopsis
"What
I said is true, legally I have the right to say it, and historically
and morally this has to be said, if we are decent human beings."
Orhan Pamuk, Turkey's best-known modern novelist, was until recently a national hero, feted both inside and outside the country.
However,
as Pamuk explains to David Hardaker, he has become a pariah virtually
overnight for daring to break a 90 year old taboo - talking openly
about Turkey's role in the deaths of more than a
million Armenians.
Sometimes
known as "the sick man of Europe", Turkey suffers from a deep-seated
insecurity about its identity. The heavy-handed state response to
Pamuk's remarks to a Swiss newspaper shows why the country faces so
many hurdles when it comes to joining the European Union.
"What
Orhan Pamuk has done here is directly insult the Turkish nation and the
very idea of being Turkish," says populist lawyer Kemal Kerincsiz. "He
is twisting history."
Despite the official view of most
independent historians, a majority of Turks believe that there was no
genocide of Armenians in 1915.
What's worse, to talk about
Armenian genocide is to question the deeds of the nation's founding
fathers, including Gallipoli hero Kemal Attaturk.
Were it simply
a war of words, probably none of this would matter much. But Pamuk's
books have been burned, his photo shredded, and there have been threats
to his life. He was even forced to leave the country for a time.
The
Turkish state is also vigorously pursuing those who dare to publicly
question the official line. Pamuk was charged under the notorious
Article 301 - which makes it an offence to insult the Turkish state,
and carries a six month jail sentence. His case became a cause celebre
in Europe, and the charge was eventually dropped, but Kemal Kerincsiz
is appealing. Dozens of other lesser known people have also been
charged with the same offence, and we meet some of them in this story.
As
Hardaker reports, the cases highlights Turkey's identity crisis and
forces Turks to confront their past in a way which until now, they have
refused to do.
http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2006/s1576063.htm
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ArmenianSurvival
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 15:13 |
Originally posted by erci
if it was a genocide what happened to the Armenians in west? and where are the graves? are they vanished as well? |
So the Nazis made graves for all the Jews, right? If they don't
value the lives of their victims, then why would they use resources to
make graves for victims, when all it does is leave behind evidence
AGAINST themselves? I'd love to see pictures of Jewish graves made by
Nazis, since all those who committed genocide took the time to honor
the dead by burying their victims.
Originally posted by erci
I'm
not saying this because I'm a Turk but noone can convince me with a few
pictures, some documents and websites that created by Armenians and
greeks which many of them are proved to be fake. |
Again, you're not paying attention to the bulk
of information,
which is collected and analyzed by non-Armenians. This notion of "all
evidence of the genocide is made up by Armenians and Greeks" is a very
narrow way of looking at the subject, and it makes your paranoia and
bias evident to everyone. I only say this because its obvious that the
bulk of information is not derived from websites made by Armenians and
Greeks.
Originally posted by erci
People died
on both sides.Even Armenian sources say that Armenians attacked
first.Losses on Armenians side were more due to exile. |
People did die on both sides, however, I would like to see
Armenian sources (sensible Armenian sources) that say the Armenians
attacked first.
Originally posted by erci
I need more than that to believe that it was genocide |
Of course you do. You needed the Ottomans to advertise the
genocide with billboards. This is the only type of evidence that the
Turkish argument leaves to the imagination, for the reasons I posted
above (total disregard to sources which point to the contrary of what you were raised to believe, etc.)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one has
ever explained why they deported women and children, since they were
the majority of people who were deported and died. If causing the death
of women and children based on ethnicity is not genocide (they were
only deported on the basis that they were Armenian, nothing else), then
what is genocide?
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։
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Jay.
Chieftain
Joined: 24-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 16:25 |
Oh come on erci.. Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise what is termed the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, on the alleged basis that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I.
Envar Pasha ordered that all Armenian recruits in the Ottoman forces be disarmed, demobilized and assigned to labor camps. Most of the Armenian recruits were either executed or turned into road laborers - few survived.
Even though nearly all the camps, including all the major ones, were open air, the rest of the mass killings in other minor camps, was not limited to direct killings; but also to mass burning, poisoning, and drowning.
I still can't beleive that many Turks claim that this wasn't a genocide. Over a million Armenians died..C'mon, it was a holocaust. As ArmenianSurvival wrote earlier in the thread: 10, 000 Bosnians die and it's a genocide, 1,000,000 Armenians die, and it's a massacre. Sorry, but this is my opinion.
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Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
Only Unity Can Save the Serb
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bg_turk
Sultan
Joined: 28-Jan-2006
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 16:28 |
Jay, can you please describe what the image you have posted depicts, what is your source for it?
The uniforms the soldiers are wearing are certainly not those of the Ottoman army, but belong to Russian battalions.
There much more authentic images of Armenian victims, I am surprised you have chosen this one.
Edited by bg_turk
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Jay.
Chieftain
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 16:38 |
That picture which I posted earlier was found on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Armeniangenocide_deadpeop le.jpgDoesn't give a description of the picture, but I beleive it was the killings of the Armenians in the Ottoman army.
Edited by Jay.
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Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
Only Unity Can Save the Serb
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bg_turk
Sultan
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 16:42 |
I removed the first picture
Like I already said, this picture does not represent victims of the genocide, I questioned its uses and what it truly represent. In my belief it is an Ottoman army contingent who after fighting have removed the dress of a Russian white battalion defeat to than dessring with their victims uniform and shutting a picture of them. It could have been Russian Armenian battalion fighting for their Tsar or etc., but I doubt this picture represent genocide victims. Fad (ix) 16:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Armenian_Genocide/Archive_ 7#I_removed_the_first_picture
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Spartakus
Tsar
terörist
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Location: Greece/Hellas
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 17:14 |
They look like the "Whites",the army of the Tsar,although i do not know what uniforms the Ottomans were wearing.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 17:18 |
This picture was disproved. Check the hats of the soldiers. They are definitely not Ottoman soldiers.
They are probably Russian soldiers; the ones who wears different hats are officers.
Ahh, but who cares? Isn't it against Turks? So what's the problem?
Genocide is not about numbers. Forget it.
I think we all agree that it is one of the most sad and unfortunate events in history.
Not calling it genocide does not make it less horrible.
We are not trying to justify what Ottomans did.
What caused the deaths of Armenians were a civil war between Turkish and Armenian people and a irresponsible relocation by Ottoman government.
But it's not a genocide.
Edited by barish
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DayI
Sultan
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 17:44 |
Originally posted by Jay.
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i had disproved this image, you can clearly see of some sodliers hat's these arent Ottoman but Russian.
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ArmenianSurvival
Chieftain
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 17:46 |
Originally posted by barish
Ahh, but who cares? Isn't it against Turks? So what's the problem? |
This falls under something I've already said:
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Again, you're not paying attention to the bulk
of information,
which is collected and analyzed by non-Armenians. This notion of "all
evidence of the genocide is made up by Armenians and Greeks" is a very
narrow way of looking at the subject, and it makes your paranoia and
bias evident to everyone. I only say this because its obvious that the
bulk of information is not derived from websites made by Armenians and
Greeks. |
Similarly, assuming that all information is "Anti-Turkish" in nature is the same type of thinking.
Originally posted by barish
What caused the deaths of Armenians were a civil war between Turkish
and Armenian people and a irresponsible relocation by Ottoman
government. |
There is no evidence of a civil war between
Armenians and Turks. But lets assume there was, what caused the vast
majority of the deaths were the irresponsible relocations, and the only
basis of these relocations was that they were Armenian (this was the
only pretext of being relocated). So it is the relocation of an ethnic
group (not those responsible for fighting, just those who belong to the
same ethnic background), so it means the government was targeting a
group based on ethnic background rather than responsibility for a
crime. If the government targets a particular ethnic group for relocation only on the
basis that they belong to that group, and somehow ends up killing over
a million of them due to neglect or "lack of resources", thats the very definition of genocide. If this
doesn't constitute genocide then nothing does. Please tell me what
genocide is then?
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։
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Iranian41ife
Arch Duke
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 18:17 |
Originally posted by DayI
Originally posted by Jay.
| i had disproved this image, you can clearly see of some sodliers hat's these arent Ottoman but Russian. |
maybe they are russian soldiers who found the graves.
there are pictures of allied soldiers after they liberated death camps of the nazi's. they discovered the massacres and took pictures. even though german soldiers arent in the pictures, it doesnt mean that the germans did do it.
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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bg_turk
Sultan
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 20:21 |
Originally posted by prsn41ife
maybe they are russian soldiers who found the graves.
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maybe, or maybe not. How do you know these are not muslims massacred by the Russian Armenian battalions?
Edited by bg_turk
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Jay.
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 20:27 |
That's because I found the picture on Wikipedia - Armenian Genocide. And, the caption was: Casualties of the Genocide. Why on earth would those be muslims massacred by the Russian Armenian battalions?
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Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
Only Unity Can Save the Serb
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Iranian41ife
Arch Duke
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 20:32 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by prsn41ife
maybe they are russian soldiers who found the graves.
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maybe, or maybe not. How do you know these are not muslims massacred by the Russian Armenian battalions?
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how do you know that they are not.
by your logic, we can say that all the pictures of the holocaust are wrong.
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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bg_turk
Sultan
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 20:40 |
Originally posted by prsn41ife
how do you know that they are not.
by your logic, we can say that all the pictures of the holocaust are wrong.
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There are other authentic images of killings against armenians but this one in particular is not one of them.
In the case of the images documenting the Holocaust, it is known where the image was taken, by whom it was taken and when it was taken.
Can you provide the same information for the image above? Where was it taken and when was it taken?
Edited by bg_turk
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Iranian41ife
Arch Duke
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 20:42 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by prsn41ife
how do you know that they are not.
by your logic, we can say that all the pictures of the holocaust are wrong.
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There are other authentic images of killings against armenians but this one in particular is not one of them.
In the case of the images documenting the Holocaust, it is known where the image was taken, by whom it was taken and when it was taken.
Can you provide the same information for the image above? Where was it taken and when was it taken?
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i cannot, but im sure experts on the subject can.
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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