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Alexander the Gay?

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Poll Question: Do you think Alexander the Great was gay?
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34 [26.98%]
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Alexander the Gay?
    Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 22:25
What do you think? I've heard several different things.
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 06:15

You completely fail to understand that for the ancient Greeks there was no such thing as "gay".

It was feminine behavior that was condemned but not "homosexual" behavior. This is a Christian ethic. Men were supposed to receive erotic pleasure and women were supposed to offer it. Not very feministic approach but that's the way it was, I'm afraid. Moreover male "friendship" was idealized in literature and inspired many writers.

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 07:12

"When Philoxenus, his lieutenant on the sea-coast, wrote to him to know if he would buy two young men of great beauty, whom one Theodorus, a Tarentine, had to sell, he was so offended that he often expostulated with his friends what baseness Philoxenus had ever observed in him that he should presume to make him such a reproachful offer. And he immediately wrote him a very sharp letter, telling him Theodorus and his merchandise might go with his good-will to destruction. Nor was he less severe to Hagnon, who sent him word he would buy a Corinthian youth named Crobylus, as a present for him. And hearing that Damon and Timotheus, two of Parmenio's Macedonian soldiers, had abused the wives of some strangers who were in his pay, he wrote to Parmenio, charging him strictly, if he found them guilty, to put them to death, as wild beasts that were only made for the mischief of mankind. In the same letter he added, that he had not so much as seen or desired to see the wife of Darius, nor suffered anybody to speak of her beauty before him. He was wont to say that sleep and the act of generation chiefly made him sensible that he was mortal; as much as to say, that weariness and pleasure proceed both from the same frailty and imbecility of human nature. "

Plutarch-Alexander

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 14:27
he was bi, he had affairs with both genders.
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  Quote Shifty Russian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 16:36

Maybe what made him so great is he appealed to both sides  ... maybe even a third LOL

... i know what i said

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2004 at 01:48
Originally posted by Shifty Russian

 ... maybe even a third LOL

I think you refer to the alleged affair with the eunuch Vagoas. But this is more fiction than fact...

 

 

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2004 at 02:31
Originally posted by Yiannis


I think you refer to the alleged affair with the eunuch Vagoas. But this is more fiction than fact...


ooh good, cause i thought he was trying to say that he played with himself.
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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2004 at 15:51

Alexander did have an affair with a woman (his wife), but he was always disinterested in sex with women, he wanted an heir to his throne. But Alexander was gay, but so what? Imy friend is gay too, should he be punished or something?

 

 

TYPO!!!

 

I just noticed...



Edited by Imperatore Dario I

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2004 at 16:03
Alexander actually had 4 wifes, at least 3 legal wifes.
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  Quote BattleGlory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2004 at 16:59
Bisexual would be the closest thing you could call him.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2004 at 21:28
Originally posted by BattleGlory

Bisexual would be the closest thing you could call him.
Can you post something that proves it?
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2004 at 00:25

Bisexual would be the closest thing you could call him.

I think just plain sexual would sum it up.

I mean from what I've read the guy probably got off in battle.

<in a figurative sense, like he enjoyed it too much>

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  Quote BattleGlory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2004 at 19:59

Originally posted by Polemidas

Originally posted by BattleGlory

Bisexual would be the closest thing you could call him.
Can you post something that proves it?

Yiannis said everything I wanted to say.  It was considered normal and expected for men to engage in what we would call homosexual relationships in ancient Greece.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2004 at 22:48
Originally posted by BattleGlory

Originally posted by Polemidas

Originally posted by BattleGlory

Bisexual would be the closest thing you could call him.
Can you post something that proves it?

Yiannis said everything I wanted to say.  It was considered normal and expected for men to engage in what we would call homosexual relationships in ancient Greece.

We were talking specifically for Alexander:Can you support your claims about his bisexuality?

Not that i agree with your statements about homosexuality in ancient Greece

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2004 at 02:33

Can you support your claims about his bisexuality?

Quite simple: it was the norm in those days. It was the "expected" behavior. The State or the "Church" were not interested in your love life. If Bill Clinton lived in ancient Greece nobody would lift an eyebrow over Monica.

However, being passive would result in one being the laugh of the city and even (more serious) lose his civil rights.

Love between free men is regulated by the affair between Erastes (lover) and Eromenos (boyfriend). Erastes was a man acting as the boy's mentor and Eromenos the boy, usually 12-14 years old. It is debated that penetration between free men was not the case, so in this affair affection was limited to fondling. There 're however reports of slave or outsiders that were boy-prostitutes.

Once again, women were regarded as somehow "inferior" and the bond between two men (which, I must consider it, might me misinterpreted by our modern ethics as homosexual) was considered almost divine.

Bottom-line: sex between men was no problem for ancient Greeks, as long as the citizen was not the passive one. But being a queer was an absolute no-no!

These are the facts as they come from various sources I've read over the years. If you want to write an essay or something, you better do your own research, if you don't agree, please state your view on the matter .

 

 

 

 

 

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  Quote warlord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2004 at 03:16

Was Alexander gay? Was Hitler gay? Suh questions are always asked about important people.

Someday historians will ask 'Was Warlord gay?'

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  Quote Master of Puppets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2004 at 09:13
 LOL
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2004 at 13:24
I beleive the term of interest here is my new favorite thing to call people randomly: catamite
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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2004 at 19:10
Originally posted by Yiannis

Can you support your claims about his bisexuality?

Quite simple: it was the norm in those days. It was the "expected" behavior. The State or the "Church" were not interested in your love life. If Bill Clinton lived in ancient Greece nobody would lift an eyebrow over Monica.

However, being passive would result in one being the laugh of the city and even (more serious) lose his civil rights.

Love between free men is regulated by the affair between Erastes (lover) and Eromenos (boyfriend). Erastes was a man acting as the boy's mentor and Eromenos the boy, usually 12-14 years old. It is debated that penetration between free men was not the case, so in this affair affection was limited to fondling. There 're however reports of slave or outsiders that were boy-prostitutes.

Once again, women were regarded as somehow "inferior" and the bond between two men (which, I must consider it, might me misinterpreted by our modern ethics as homosexual) was considered almost divine.

Bottom-line: sex between men was no problem for ancient Greeks, as long as the citizen was not the passive one. But being a queer was an absolute no-no!

These are the facts as they come from various sources I've read over the years. If you want to write an essay or something, you better do your own research, if you don't agree, please state your view on the matter .

 

 

 

 

 

"Of course homosexuality existed in Greece, just as it has existed, and will continue to exist, everywhere and at all times in human history. However, while it did exist, it was never legally sanctioned, thought to be a cultural norm, or engaged in without risk of serious punishment, including exile and death." A pitiful creature like Barney Frank, for instance, would have -- upon his particular "proclivity" being discovered -- been executed or sent into exile. After which, his living quarters would have been fumigated and ritually purified by a priest. Unless, of course, he had previously "gone public" with his homosexual lifestyle. In that case, though he would have been permitted to live, he would, under Athenian law (graf­ etair­sios), not be permitted to

become one of the nine archons, nor to discharge the office of priest, nor to

act as an advocate for the state, nor shall he hold any office whatsoever, at home

or abroad, whether filled by lot or by election; he shall not be sent as a herald;

he shall not take part in debate, nor be present at the public sacrifices; when the

citizens are wearing garlands, he shall wear none; and he shall not enter within the

limits of the place that has been purified for the assembling of the people. Any

man who has been convicted of defying these prohibitions pertaining to sexual

conduct shall be put to death (Aeschines. "Contra Timarchus," as cited in

Georgiades, p. 69).



We learn as well that "Athens had the strictest laws pertaining to homosexuality of any democracy that has ever existed" (62). In non-democratic Sparta, as well as in democratic Crete and the rest of democratic Hellas, there were similar prohibitions with similar punishments as that meted out in Athens, and Georgiades gives us citations galore to prove his main thesis: "At no time, and in no place, was this practice considered normal behavior, or those engaged in it allowed to go unpunished" (passim). In order to remove any doubt whatsoever, he draws on such ancient luminaries as Aeschylus, Aristophanes, Diodorus Seculus, Euripides, Homer, Lysias, Plato, Plutarch and Xenophon, all of whom have left a written record as to what the prevailing norms were concerning this behavior. He also covers Greek vase painting, Mythology and Lesbianism, while not neglecting to reveal the truth about such much-maligned personalities from Hellas' glorious past as Achilles and Patroclus, Alcibiades and Socrates, Alexander the Great and Hephaestion, and the woman that the later Greeks regarded as "the greatest of the lyric poets," Sappho.



Greek vase painting has been a favorite source for the distorters of Greek culture and civilization. Georgiades points out that, of the tens of thousands of vases unearthed so far (the count for just the province of Attica, where Athens is located, is over 80,000), only 30 or so have an overtly homosexual theme; representing, in other words, just .01% of the total (127). When one compares this small percentage to what we see today on TV, in ads, books, magazines, the cinema, etc., one can just imagine what future generations will think of us. There is more, much more, but the purpose of this review is to stimulate the reader to order the book to see for himself just how Georgiades has managed to shed the light of truth on this important aspect of Greek history.



There is one more thing, however, that must be said. Georgiades has -- in a clear and easy-to-comprehend manner -- delineated the difference between what the ancients meant when they used the words "Erastis" and "Eromenos," and the way these words are translated and used in our time. This alone is worth the price of the book. Briefly, to the ancient Greeks, the term Erastis denoted a man who mentored, in a non-physical way, an Eromenos. The Eromenos was in all cases a beardless youth who looked up to and respected his mentor, and who had been commissioned by the boy's parents to take on the vital chore of preparing him to assume the roles of husband, father, soldier, and active citizen in the affairs of his community. Georgiades delves deeply into this relationship, and explains how and why these terms have come today to be confused with the "dominant" and "passive" partners in an homosexual union"

From the review of Georgiades "Debunking the Myth of Homosexuality in Ancient Greece "

 

Alexander is our case here.Read the part of Plutarch's "Alexander" ive posted where he denies his supposed bisexuality.

Now post your various sources proving it.

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2004 at 20:00

I beleive the term of interest here is my new favorite thing to call people randomly: catamite

Now lets leave batman and robin out of this.

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