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Ponce de Leon
Caliph
Lonce De Peon
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Topic: Who was in charge of the Armenian Genocide? Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 21:03 |
I just watched a documentary on the armenian genocide. I wanted to know if actually any person can be singled out, or if it was just the government or the society the armenians wer living in.
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mamikon
Sultan
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Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 22:40 |
The first acts of Genocide took place in 1894-1896 under Sultan Abdul Hamid II (the bloody sultan)
Then It the was the Young Turk government which took charge
in 1908. The perpetrators where Talaat Pasha, Enver Pasha, and
Cemal Pasha.
Ataturk also killed thousands of Armenians (and Greeks) but scholars do not think
that his acts were to be included with that of Abdul Hamid and the
trio-Pashas, since he was trying to repel the allied treaties or
something.
I believe Ataturk acknowledged the Genocide in 1926, in an interview
with a Los Angeles based news agency, he reffered to it as "massacres"
since the word Genocide has not been created until Lemkin came along in
the 1940s.
Edited by mamikon
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 02:19 |
So called Armenian Genocide is based on claims and propagandas. There is no evidence.
Lots of Armenians died in those years, some were killed by Turks, but that does not fit into the definition of a genocide.
Whatever, I am wasting my time.
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Alkiviades
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 03:06 |
Sure you are. The Armenian genocide is well-documented and aknowledged as it was extremely massive. We have documents, various foreign officials describing it, pictures, accounts and various other proof.
I am quite certain Turks should accept it and move on, it's not like we'd call them personally responsible for the evil-trio's slaughters. As nobody attributes the slaughters of Chinghiz Khan to todays Mongols and I don't think many connect the Germans today with Hitler or the communists today with Stalin.
Enver (the "jewish Turk" as some call him) was the mastermind behind the genocide, but the whole plan was executed by the trio of neoturk leaders, as mamikon pointed out.
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If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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Mortaza
Tsar
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 03:45 |
Sorry but you even call what Abdulhamit did genocide too. what type of sciencific words are this, I dont remember any jew attacked hitler and killed a lot people.
It is true a lot of people killed, It is false even this trio acted like hitler. Even they have not much justification what they did, they have good reasons. hitler have not.
For abdulhamit, It is complately rubish to call his act as genocide.
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Lmprs
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 04:49 |
Originally posted by Alkiviades
Sure you are. The Armenian genocide is well-documented and aknowledged as it was extremely massive. We have documents, various foreign officials describing it, pictures, accounts and various other proof. |
Yeah, I know what you are talking about.
The pictures are mostly fake and disproved.
I think I saw a "document" about Talat Pasha's orders.
It was as if written by a "bad guy" you see in movies, pretty unrealistic.
Originally posted by Alkiviades
I am quite certain Turks should accept it and move on, it's not like we'd call them personally responsible for the evil-trio's slaughters. |
You say that I am not responsible for something which occured a century ago, right?
Ah, thank you so much. I am sooo grateful for that!
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DayI
Sultan
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 04:56 |
since armenians arent able to capture their so called "western provinces" they do it the other way, the way that the whole world are supporting them. Letting Turkey acknowledging and acceptin the so called biased lie about the armenian genocide gaves them the chance to get their "western provinces" back with support of other organisation on their back.
Firstly give youre poor armenians food instead of telling all those bull, they die of hunger...
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 05:10 |
The problem with the `alleged armenian genocide ` is , it became a toy for politicians.Some goverments decided if it was a genocide not historians.And coincidentaly these are the countries with important armenian voting power.Also I saw on several message boards that there are some armenians who thinks they will get land from Turkey by using this. Obviously there are people who live in some kind of weird reality and those people make it even harder to solve this problem , like ultra-nationalist turkish people who think they can not possibly do something wrong.
Personally I believe those three pashas and the nationalist movement is responsible of most of the armenian deaths between 1915-1917.I don`t know if it was `genocide` or not.Hard to swallow that as a fact when politicians not historians claim it was.
Also I think armenian politicians deliberately push this subject to draw international attention from armenian occupation of Nagorno-Karabakh.It is a big region and it belongs to Azerbaijan.Armenians invaded the region in 1992 and Turkey closed it`s borders with Armenia since then. I think at the end Turkey and Armenia will reach an agreement about `alleged genocide` subject.And probably it will be like you forget my misdeeds and I`ll forget yours.
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erci
Chieftain
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 05:15 |
^^ not the whole world, only countries who have turkophobia, not
because they believe in Armenians.and the best part is they recognize
it without making any researches.
Armenians should focus on and use their efforts to develep their
country and people.It will be more benefical for them.Country is
vanishing from international arena day by day.
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Alkiviades
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 05:58 |
When any Armenian posters will see those paternalistic at best (or downright rude, at worst) comments, all hell shall break loose for another time... I'd suggest more subtlety, in order to keep this topic from descending into yet another flamewar.
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If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 06:07 |
I agree , less nationalistic crap please and more objectivity.
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Komnenos
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 06:34 |
Warning
This topic has been discussed a hundred times on AE.
However, as there are quite a few new members involved in this discussions, it will remain open, as long it is being debated in a civilised manner, unlike many of the old threads on the Armenian issue.
Edited by Komnenos
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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 06:43 |
My grand-grand father had been killed by the Armenian rebellions who were in the service of Russian Imperial Army.So I invite everyone respect the victims of each side...it is irritating..
Genocide is a very serious crime,and requires much more work than a documantery...
If there is evidence,why dont the allegators appeal to the court?
Not every death,massacere is a genocide..Calling any event as genocide spreads this crime and hence reduce the extremity of the Nazi Party.
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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Alkiviades
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 07:39 |
I do not think Nazis have the copyright on Genocides. If you want a term that is not loaded, try Democide. Or you can look up a definition, like this one taken from Wiki (it's standard dictionary material btw. nothing to quarel about)
Genocide is defined by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) article 2 as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: "Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." |
So, under that definition, what the neoturks did to the Armenians (and the Pontic Greeks and others) is definitely classified as a "genocide". In this case, we are talking about a mass-scale genocide as well, so we'd better use the term democide. Again, from wiki:
Democide is a term coined by political scientist R.J. Rummel in his book Death by Government to describe "the murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder".[1] For example, government-sponsored killings for political reasons would be considered democide. Capital punishment is not usually considered democide. Democide can also include deaths arising from "reckless and depraved disregard for life"; this brings into account many deaths arising through various neglects and abuses, such as forced mass starvation. Rummel explicitly excludes war deaths in his definition, except for killings outside the laws of war |
There have been democides and genocides loooooong before the relevent terms were invented. What the Mongols did in Hsi Hsia, was 100% a genocide. What they did in Khwarazmia as well. Tamerlane was perhaps the greatest democider the world has ever seen. The Seleucids (attempted to) conduct a genocide, the Romans carried out half a dozen. A hundred more cases spring in mind.
Any way you see it, what happened with the Armenians was a genocide.
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If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 07:47 |
Originally posted by Alkiviades
So, under that definition, what the neoturks did to the Armenians is definitely classified as a "genocide". |
Under which conditions can you classify this?May I see you expertise on the international law related with these issue?...Otherwise,reading the definition,2-3 papers and using imagination is not enough...This is called intellectual arrogantness...
In order to classify events genocide,you ''have to'' be an expert on international law,have distinguished information on geography,history,social pyschology of that period.
May I ask also how you also define the atrocities committed by the Greek(or hellas? ) army in western Turkey against the Turkish population which eventually compelled the Greek side to pay compensation?
Edited by TheDiplomat
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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Alkiviades
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 08:34 |
Stop playing Turkish with me, Thediplo. We are on an internet forum, not on the UN where you can talk yourself clean (or pretend you do). We have facts here.
Slaughtering 800.000 to 1.5 million (the second number is accepted internationally, btw. but I throw in the lowest western estimation for your convenience) of a single ethnic group in order to create lebensraum for your people, and because those people (you killed) are the ones refusing to be absorbed into the dominant culture, does not take an expert in international law to define as a genocide, just some common sense.
I am refusing to go into yet another debacle on the alleged "crimes" of the Greek occupation forces in western Asia Minor, because then I'd have to bring up Ataturks massacres and that would lead us to another "your people killed more" type of silly debates. This is about the Armenian genocide, nothing else.
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If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 08:54 |
The fact that we are on an internet forum does not mean that you can insult any other nation so easily,my Greek fellower.
If you have an argument,you are supposed to back it up.Simple as that.
As a fellow-forumer,since you claim to be presenting so-called facts,then I am entitled to ask your background on the issue,briefly how you proove it.It has nothing to do with being Turkish...I let the science be my guide.
You information as follows''...are the ones refusing to be absorbed into the dominant culture, does not take an expert in international law to define as a genocide, just some common sense.'' demonstrate the fact that you got the info on a brain-washing source,which tried to put paralels between the Holocaust and this issue,so that they could persuade people easily for their own arguments.
Please let me tell you that The Ottoman Armenian population were not required to be absrobed into the dominant culture in the 20.cebtury,as the Armenians themselves were practising Turkish customs on their won after living together for centuries.
As for the atrocities committed by the Greek Army forces in western Turkey following the WWI,I just wanted to hear you opinion on the definition of the issue no who killed more,since you acted as if an expert on crimes...
Not to my suprise,I saw that you even didnt know Greece herself paid compensation(giving a town to Turkey) for the atrocities committed by herself during the Turkish Independence War.
One of the most important sources of international law is ''international treaties'',so you got to be well-informed on the treaties if you want your allegations to be persuasive.
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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o_irengun
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 08:57 |
Yes We have killed greeks armenians and kurds we are still killing them we are bloody minded barbarians.
The armenians and greeks and ... were sitting in their warm houses we have atackted them without any reasons and killed them.10 nations have lived for 1000 years in peace.And one day they have killed eachother.
i dont believe stroies like this sorry.U have to tell me stories about benefits of other countries.Like Russia like france like germany.That could be interesting for me to understand the reasons to kill brothers.
General Staff of ottoman army was during the wwi under the controll and strongly influence of prussia.i mean during the genocide times Funny isnt it? And the armenians they were under the influence of russia and france.This is very funny too.
So who was the charge for the armenian genocide?
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Maju
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:26 |
I must say I am again shocked, astonished, ashamed and angry at the
derivation of the discussion on what happened exactly during the
Armenian Genocide to a massive barrickade to defend the honor of
Turkey.
Please stop being so foolish: your nation like all others have commited
crimes. And the only way to clarify which part belongs to whom is by
dissapassionate and careful discussion.
In this regard I susggest all reasonable forumers to ignore the
nationalist Turkish discourse and keep this topic as a rational
discussion among people interested in knowing about the details and
facts of the genocide.
It is a shame for this forum that when we try to discuss serious matters we are sabotaged by nationalist crap.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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mamikon
Sultan
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Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 09:28 |
There are many reports by German ambassadors and government officials
trying to control the trio, but couldnt. Now I would go to a great
discussion of
why and how the genocide took place, but since whatever I say turks
here will not believe me, I will just stop. Although I will say this,
when in 1943 Lemkin was interviewed by CBS to comment on his definition
of "Genocide" he said "Its what happened to the Armenian people during
the last years of the Ottoman Empire".
Like many Turks, sooner or later the Turkish government has to come to terms with its past, an apology is long overdue.
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