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Huns(Xiongnu), Turks(Tujue) and Mongols

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coolstorm View Drop Down
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Huns(Xiongnu), Turks(Tujue) and Mongols
    Posted: 07-Feb-2005 at 16:05
Attila the Hun
 
I had some reservation as to the true nature of the Huns who invaded Europe. The popular history account says that Western Huns pushed their way into Europe after being pressured by the Ruruan or Rouran (Juan-Juans). http://www.fernweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mf/people.htm claimed that the Huns "went north-west in search of new homes. They found their way into the valley of the Volga and, in the second half of the 4th Century, attacked the Alans (a people related to the Sarmatians, who lived between the Volga and the Don). After routing the Alans, they then went on to conquer the Ostrogoths and drive the Visigoths westwards." (Sarmatians, famous for the female warriors who had a tradition of ironing out one nipple of baby girls at birth, could be the so-called 'N Guo', i.e., women statelet.)
 
From AD 91 to 4th-5th century, the traces of the Western Huns were unknown to Chinese records. On record would be the stories of Ruruan [Rou-ran] and Nie-ban. In my opinion, the Ruruans were more Hunnic than those peoples they pushed out. In the
Turk/Uygur section, we covered the Ruruan origin and their absorbing remnant Huns and Gao-che people. Western records showed the Attila Huns were extermely barbaric, unlike their Asian kinsmen who, after hundreds of years of co-living with Chinese and generations of inter-marriages with the Chinese, had become very much a semi-sedentary civilized quazi-Chinese.
 
During the second major Hunnic split of AD 89, the Chanyu of Northern Huns fled westward to the ancient Kang-chu Statelet, after they were defeated by General Dou Xian and Dou's Southern Hun allies at Jiluoshan Mountains. In AD 91, General Dou Xian mounted another deadly campaign against the Northern Huns. Northern Huns hence began a migration that would lead to the chain reaction to the West. Scholar Luo Xianglin stated that the Huns split into two groups: Ye-da [White Huns] posing threat to Sassanian Dynasty to the northeast of today's Iran, and western offshoot moving to south of Ural Mountain. Luo Xianglin further stated that the Western Huns, under Balamir, due to a famine, relocated towards Europe in AD 372, conquering Eastern Goths and driving away Western Goths. Balamir, after conquering the territories north of Danube, received the tributes from Roman Emperor. Balamir's son would be Attila who, with 700000 army, campaigned against East Roman Empire in AD 447 and attacked Western Roman Empire in AD 450. (Western Roman Emperor Odoacer was driven off by the Goths in AD 476.)
 
Nie-Ban Huns
In the west, the descendants of those Huns would set up a country called Nie-Ban (a word that was used for Nirvana), and the Nie-ban Huns despised the Ruruans for their hygiene. The Huns thought they were much more civilized than the Ruruan. This is especially true of the Southern Huns who had been relocated to the Hetao Areas or the Ordos Plains.
 
The timing of the Hunnic western thrust in 4th century AD does not conform to the Hunnic Empire splitting in 51 BC or 89 AD. Western history books said that the Hunnic empire split into two hordes in 51 BC, with the Eastern Horde subject to China. The western Huns they referred to here must belong to Hunnic 'Chanyu Zhizhi' who, around 53 BC, hearing that 'Huhanye Chanyu' obtained the support of the Han Chinese, sent his son to Han Court as a hostage as well. Zhizhi, being afraid of Han for his killing Han emissary, later relocated to the west, namely, the ancient Jiankun Statelet. This relocation also had to do with the request from Kangju king who intended to attack the Wusun Statelet with Huns' assistance. Then governor-general Gan Yansou answered the call from Wusun and sent 6 columns of armies to defeat Kangju and 'Zhizhi Chanyu'. Zhizhi's descendants would later call themselves the Kirghiz, a mutation in the pronunciation of 'Zhizhi'.
 
In AD 48, the Hunnic Empire formally dissolved due to internal fights. In Chinese records, two groups of Huns would be known, Southern Huns and the Northern Huns. Around AD 89, General Dou Xian, under the order of his empress sister, led a huge army comprising of armies from Beijing area and the Southern Hun allies, had a decisive battle with the Northern Huns at Jiluoshan Mountains. Han army chased the Huns deep into the northwest territories, defeated 81 Hunnic tribes, and captured over 200 thousand Huns. History of the Northern Dynasties recorded that the Chanyu of Northern Huns fled westward to the ancient Kang-chu Statelet, while the remaining weak and elder Huns relocated to the north of the Chouci Statelet. Scholar Luo Xianglin stated that in AD 91 [3rd year of Empror Hedi's Yonghe Era], General Dou Xian mounted another deadly campaign against the Northern Huns. Northern Huns hence began a migration that would lead to the chain reaction to the West.
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Koltigin View Drop Down
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  Quote Koltigin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 18:01

Hi Everybody,

I am a new user, and the amount of information presented in this discussion has JUST AMAZED ME!

I want to thank you all for such a nice thread. I am quite interested in the origins of Turks and the diversion of language families in the steppes of Middle Asia. Being very poorly-informed on the issue compared to you guys , instead of babling here, I would like to ask for some suggestions as to what to read on the topic.

I'd greatly appreciate the names of books or authors on Turks or Turkic languages if you can give me couple of them.

Thanks all,

Murat.

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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 17:16

 Huuuummm, I also thought that the Yue Chi, or Kushan, where Iranic, but now you tell me that they where Tocharians, i.e., not iranic.... so, who where the Tocharians?

Sikander

 

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Temujin View Drop Down
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2005 at 14:43
the easternmost group of indo-europeans
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ihsan View Drop Down
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 17:37
Well I've seen many internet sources saying that the Yuezhi (Ye-chih) were Iranic but in fact they were Tokharians. I don't know what makes those people thingk that the Tokharian Yuezhi were Iranic
[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

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ihsan View Drop Down
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 17:38
About the Tokharians: http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm
[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

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  Quote mhtoi163 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2013 at 02:26
I'm really interested in Xiongnu. I read that they don't have literature.What I want to really say is that may be Kachin tribes of Burma would be likely related with southern Xiongnu.I am Kachin and we have no literature before the missionaries from America came.We have a story about wars with Chinese and we had to fled to Northern Burma which was mostly areas of Shan which is really related to Thai in my opinion.
a;So, I would like to ask that is it possible that we and Xiongnu might be related?

b;Is there any characteristics about Xiongnu? Do they have somekind of unique dance?

c;How did they bury the dead people?

We got literature just for about a century ago,by the way.Smile
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