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Plato`s Atlantis

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Plato`s Atlantis
    Posted: 13-Feb-2014 at 16:40
What have been done from Gobekli Tepe till now,Beorna?14-20000 years of human history have made us masters of nuclear energy&DNA engeeners!Where did it come from?!?What did make us
superior specie?When did it?
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2014 at 18:07
There is some confusion in Plato regarding the time scale involved in his story.

According to the Timaeus;

The Egyptian priest of Sais told Solon in c.590 BC -
"She [Athene] founded your city [Solon's Athens] a thousand years before ours [Egyptian Sais], receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your race, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred registers to be eight thousand years old."

So Athens founded c.9590 BC; Sais founded c.8590 BC

Plato then records the priest saying -
"Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end."

Here the priest is saying that the history of Sais records the battle between Athens and Atlantis, so this must have occurred after Sais was founded (or it couldn't have been recorded by them).

Plato then writes;
"...she [Athens] defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea."

Plato's timeline is thus;
Founding of Athens c.9590 C
Founding of Sais c.8590 BC
Atlantis invades and conquers most of Europe and Africa
War between Athens and Atlantis preserved in Sais records.
Athens triumphant and liberates countries under Atlantian rule.
Athens is destroyed by earthquake and Atlantis sinks beneath the sea.

It is clear from this that Plato never recorded that Atlantis was destroyed 9000 years before Solon, but placed the destruction of Atlantis after the foundation of Sais (ie after c.8590 BC0.
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2014 at 18:41
Originally posted by Sidney

According to the Timaeus;
...
Plato's timeline is thus;
Founding of Athens c.9590 C
Founding of Sais c.8590 BC
Atlantis invades and conquers most of Europe and Africa
War between Athens and Atlantis preserved in Sais records.
Athens triumphant and liberates countries under Atlantian rule.
Athens is destroyed by earthquake and Atlantis sinks beneath the sea.

It is clear from this that Plato never recorded that Atlantis was destroyed 9000 years before Solon, but placed the destruction of Atlantis after the foundation of Sais (ie after c.8590 BC0.
But this is contradicted in the Critais;

1. Plato records that Critais tells Socrates; -
"Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe."

This is confirmed later; -
"Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years, for that is the number of years which have elapsed since the time of which I am speaking;"

Critais was speaking c.410 BC, so here Plato is saying that the war between Athens and Atlantis occurred c.9410 BC. This directly contradicts his earlier timeline.

2. Plato records Critais saying;
"In the days of old the gods had the whole earth distributed among them by allotment. There was no quarrelling; for you cannot rightly suppose that the gods did not know what was proper for each of them to have, or, knowing this, that they would seek to procure for themselves by contention that which more properly belonged to others."..."Hephaestus and Athene, who were brother and sister, and sprang from the same father, having a common nature, and being united also in the love of philosophy and art, both obtained as their common portion this land [Athens],"..."And Poseidon, receiving for his lot the island of Atlantis."

He is thus saying that Athens and Atlantis were founded at the same time - when the gods were apportioned land (ie in 9590 BC)

But Plato also records Critais saying regarding the various kings and states under Atlantean control -

"All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; and also, as has been already said, they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia."

"For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws....but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand,...[then] they were full of avarice and unrighteous power."

So the war between Athens and Atlantis occurred many generations after the gods had set up their countries (for, according to Critais, the gods don't argue). This contradicts Plato's Timaeus timeline - for if Athens and Atlantis were founded together then the date for the war c.9410 BC (c.180 years later) is not the 'many generations' that Plato represents.

4. In Timaeus Plato records that Athens and Atlantis were destroyed on the same night - Athens sinking beneath the ground and Atlantis sinking beneath the sea. However in Critais he records that - "Atlantis, which, as was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean.", but records of Athens - "For the fact is that a single night of excessive rain washed away the earth and laid bare the rock; at the same time there were earthquakes, and then occurred the extraordinary inundation, which was the third before the great destruction of Deucalion."

Here Plato is saying that Athens was flooded, contradicting the other narrative that it was swallowed up by the earth.


The part that does agree however is the one that says the war with Atlantis occurred after Sais was founded;
3. Plato tells us that the Egyptians recorded the names in the history of Athens while ancient Athens still survived, because - "the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language". This had to be while ancient Athens still existed because after Athens was destroyed "any survivors [of the destruction], as I have already said, were men who dwelt in the mountains; and they were ignorant of the art of writing, and had heard only the names of the chiefs of the land, but very little about their actions." Critais' narrative therefore had to have been preserved while the Athenians still knew their history, and so before the war, if not the destruction, of Athens and Atlantis.

Critais' timeline seems to be;
Athens and Atlantis founded.
Many generations later Atlantis becomes corrupt and avarice.
Sais is either founded before the war, or before the destruction of Athens.
Athens and Atlantis go to war in c.9410 BC
Athens leads the war (and defeats Atlantis?)
Athens is flooded and Atlantis sinks beneath the sea.

Edited by Sidney - 13-Feb-2014 at 19:00
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2014 at 19:06
Personally I think these contradictions between Timaeus and Critais suggest that Plato was not preserving a unified narrative passed down by Solon, but was creating the story (or at least the details of it) himself, or that Critais was making it up as he went along.

Even if we do accept Solon as the originator, or transmitter, of the story of the war between Athens and Atlantis, these contradictions indicate that the story as we have it in Plato is untrustworthy as an accurate narrative from which to base historical or archaeological conclusions.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2014 at 22:13
Sorry i didn't know there had been other replies (this topic being hidden in a sub-forum). There are some good/interesting points.

Toyomotor: for evidence/proof of South America see my blog article, or see Jim Allen's Atlantis in Bolivia site, or see satellite images of geoglyphs etc in Altiplano & area of Tiahuanaco/Titicaca.
As Sidney said: Atlantis/Atlas is Greek name/word. The Atlantis account says that the Greeks reverse translated from Egyptians who translated from original Atlantean. So Atlantis may not be the/a connected historical name. Greek Atlas could possibly be related to Hittite Alalu(s) and Biblical Adam? The Aztec A-tl/A-tonatiuh may be related to E-a or to Atlantis/Atlas / Alalus / Adam. All languages/myths ultimately come from one common original, but we make alot of mistakes in the process of finding the true cognates of names/words.
There may be connections with Atlas as the founder of astrology and the temple in shape of the spheres [Hyperborea?] (etc.)

Mountain Man: there are many real historical examples of hubris throughout world & history, are they all made-up too?

Beorna:
- Atlantis account 9000 & 8000 years is actually 900 and 800 years. Atlantis 900(0) years before Amasis 2 matches Herodotus' Moeris (& Hercules) 900 years before. The 9000 years = 900 years, and the 9000 years = 9000 months both reconcile with a 10 month calendar year (so it is not 1200s bc). Compare Hyperboreans lived a 1000 years is really 100 years. (See my blog article for more details as i can't post it all here.)
- Herodotus said Moeris (12th dynasty) was 900 years before [Amasis 2] (like Atlantis was 900(0) years before Amasis 2), so date of Middle Kingdom is not after 2100bc but before ca 1400s bc, and New Kingdom was not since 1500 bc but 200 years after Middle Kingdom. Josephus (and Herodotus) said Menes was 1300 years before Solomon/19th dynasty, which means 1st dynasty was not more than 2300 bc, not 3000 bc. Joseph was in the 3rd-4th dynasty so Old Kingdom was not 2700bc.
- Minoan ended after Atlantis sinking because Sais 800 after Atlantis 900 seems to match Anysis 700 after Salitis/Saites [800] after Moeris 900. Hyksos in Crete. Greek chronology also has Theseus/Minotaur after Atlantis (after Cecrops, before Theseus).
- You may be right that there may be melting together of different incidents. Zangger thought that the Trojan war was Atlantis war. The sea peoples may be the "Pelasgians" of Sea Powers/Thalassocracies just after the Trojan war.
My timeline is Atlantis -> Hyksos/Minoan -> Trojan war -> Sea peoples/Heraclids/Dorians.


Sidney
You might like the 'Atlantis is not speculative history' on Historum forum since they all there also believe that Plato just made it up. (I'm not following that thread/topic (or forum) anymore myself though since my last post and the mess i got myself in there.) Atlantis has been found/verified, other details of the account are also being more verified too.
There is no contradiction between the Critias and Timaeus dates because they were both from Sais/Amasis/Solon.
I myself don't see a great problem with Sais having records of an event just a 100 years before (900 years Atlantis/Moeris/Hercules, 800 years Sais/Saites/Sailitis).
He didn't say Athens city was swallowed up, he said the warriors were swallowed up and the spring was clogged up?
You make very good/clever/true points, but i think people are too critical of sources like that.
Gerald Massey mentions 2 or 3 different traditions of the foundings of Sais, Athens and a Phoenician city (can't remember which of Sidon or Tyre or Byblos) in different orders.
Atlantis war/sinking was between Cecrops (founded Athens) and Erechtheus (before Theseus).
There was/were pre-Greek periods of Greece/Athens (Actaeus?)?
The timeline seems to go Atlantis (& Athens0/1) founded -- many generations -- Athens1/2 founded by Cecrops c 900 ya -- Atlantis war c 900 ya -- [Atlantis sinking?] -- Sais founded 800 ya -- 800yrs -- 26th dyn/Solon.
Hephaistos in the Account may be Ptah who is also connected with 900(0) years in god-kings dynasty? (Ptah's 900 years was from 1st dynasty down/forward; Atlantis 900 years was from Sais up/back.)
But you may be right about some confusion of dates, since there also seemed to me that may be some confusion of when the war/sinking took place since on one hand it seems to be about time of end of 12th dynasty while on other hand seems to be about time of Sea Poeples (19th/20th dyn) (& the cocaine & tobacco found in mummies).
(Similarily i'm not sure if Sesostris of Colchis is 12th dynasty Senusert or 19th dynasty Shishak/Ramses 2.)
The bit about Dropides/Critias / father/grandfather just seems to be uncertain/confused which way around, thats all.
Your name always reminds me of Sidney in 'Alias' and Sidney the author of great pyramid book (and 'Sargon the Magnificient' book), both are favourites of mine.

(link to blog is in profile i think. the paper is not written very well tho.)
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2014 at 17:53
Arthur-Robin;
Thanks for your comments and pointer to Historum's thread.

As far as I can understand it, sourcing Plato's account from Sais/Amasis/Solon does not get rid of the contradictions. Can you explain how you perceive that it does?

If Sais recorded the war between Athens and Atlantis, then Timaeus puts the war after 8590 BC, while Critais places it in 9410 BC. Their dates do not tally.

If you take Plato as a reliable source for historical research, then you have to be critical of the information he transmits. Otherwise you are into the realms of blind faith.

I'm not aware of Gerald Massey's research. Could you point me in a good direction to find out more?

Plato mentions that the Egyptians gave Solon the names of Athenians before Theseus, and that they tallied with the names from Greek mythology. Nothing in Plato's account, however, ties in the time of the Athenian war with any of these names (the context as to why the Egyptians gave Solon those names is not recorded - they might have all been before the war). The linking of Cecrops to the story of Atlantis is referring to the myth of Athena and Poseidon contending over patronship of Athens when Cecrops was king. Athena won and Poseidon in anger caused Attica to be flooded. But Athens was not destroyed, nor was it threatened by invaders, both of which are part of the Atlantis context. Plato records that many floods had occurred since the time of the Athenian/Atlantis war, and this one in the time of Cecrops would be one of them.

Hephaistos is linked to Ptah, and is said to have reigned 9000 years, but connecting this to the 9000 years before Solon/Critais/Plato is confusing the issue. According to accounts, Ptah's reign was followed by a number of other gods/kings who reigned for a total of 8000 years or more, making over 17,000 years, and all this before the time of Menes, the first king of united Egypt. In this timeline Ptah would have reigned long before Sais or Atlantis or Athens existed.

As far as I can make out, no evidence for Atlantis exists if the researcher is using Plato's account, and keeping true to Plato's account. Theories require ignoring or adding parts to Critais and Timaeus, and treating the two accounts as if they present a single unified account, which they do not. If researchers accept Plato's account as accurate, but then decide parts of it are wrong, they need to give good reasons for why this is so, and why the rest of Plato can't be wrong also.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2014 at 22:16
I don't really see that there are so many or major contradicitions as you/others suggest. Some of the contradictions are not really contradictions. Some contradicitions don't seem very big deal to me. Just because there may be some seeming contradicitions doesn't/shouldn't change the fact that the account has been verified and Atlantis has been found. I can't completely answer a couple but consider that it is only a couple of minor not-yet-explained-seeming-contradictions versus my paper of more than over [40?+] matches of most of the details of the Atlantis account with Tiahuanaco/South America.
(If it is such a major deal we better make a concise list of all your contradicitions because i am finding it hard to even remember what they all are (due to time/etc pressures).)
As i said there is no contradiction i can see between "Critias/410" and "Timaeus/590" dates because both come from Solon/Sonchis/Amasis2/Sais time (the account more or less says the 900/800 years was before Amasis 2).
I don't agree with your conclusion that the war/sinking must be after Sais/800 in one of the 2 parts just because Sais had records of it. The account doesn't say that it is just your reading of it (and i have never heard anyone else suggest same). And again the date is not 9000/8000 but 900/800.

I did not mean that Hephaistos and Ptah 900(0) are definfitely connected but just a possible explanation/connection, & yes it may be wrong or "confusing the issue".
There may have been about 900 years from Menes/1st dynasty to 12th dynasty? (the 900 years of Atlantis account was from 12th dynasty to 26th dynasty as i showed re Herodotus' Moeris (& Hercules).)
The godkings are not before Menes but are contemporary with dynastic history (though they are also analgous to the 10 patriarchs before/after the Flood), and the figures aren't necessarily all consecutive?, and the figures are not literal but code. Ptah's reign is from 1st dynasty (or maybe from Babel or Noah or Adam). Ra's/Re's reing is from 3rd/4th/5th dynasty. The godkings dynasty also seem to be pairs. Ptah & Ra is old kingdom, Shu & Geb are Mid Kingdom / 12th dynasty as in the el-Arish inscription (and as in 3 hermes Set Shu Thoth roughly ~ Old Kingdom, Mid Kingdom, New Kingdom). The gods reigned down to time of Merneptah/"Menes". Ptah (memphis, 1st god) = merneptah/meneptah "=" Menes/Min (memphis, 1st king) = Chem = Mendes = Pan (1st god). 3 groups gods Pan/8, Hercules/12/900, Dionysos/3rd ~ roughly 3 kingdoms. Hercules 900 = Moeris 900 = Atlantis 900 before 26th dynasty.
The godkings may also/alterantively be 10 ages like the 10 worlds/world-trees/trees of Eddaic, and the 10 avataras of Indian, and other nations versions too.

Your contradictions points are interesting and clever and valid (and may be good to resolve a couple) but as i said I think people are too critical like that of sources, and there are also many far more interesting details/things in the account than just those few "boring" textual cirticism-like points (no offense to you at all meant). I don't agree that the Timaeus and Critias are separate.
I don't agree that we have to be critical or its blind faith. The reigning orthodox scholarship is already too critical like that. My approach was to as objectively/balanced-as-possible try to find if there was historical match for the account or not, rather than being prejudicially so too critical as modern scholars are. Moderns are too critical/deconstructive of ancient sources and too trusting of modern theories/reconstructions/etc, where-as i tend to vice-versa trust ancient sources more than modern theorists. Nothing is perfect so we will always find real or seeming faults.
My thesis/theory of Atlantis = South America/Tiahaunaco does not ignore any details of "Plato's" account (or say they are wrong) nor add any to.
It is not true to say no evidence. Please see my paper on my blog as it is too long to post it all here and waste of time/effort me having to rewrite it all.

Atlantis &/or Deucalion flood was sometime between Cecrops & Erechtheus (before Theseus). I did not know about the Athena vs Poseidon (thanks).
I will have to re-read the account if/when i have time to find answer to whether it says the events were in that or any other time. (But problem is i am going on strike (web/net-wise etc) after today as i am fed-up with stupid windows 8/7 problems, stupid new laptop problems, fluoridated/posioned water porblems, and many other "life"/love-lack hell problems i am suffering....)
The account idea seems to be that the events were in the pre-Greek Minoan/Mycenaean/linear period and that that culture was devastated and linear writing lost and there was then the Greeks later like modern archaeology/history has it? Though problem is Minoan/Mycenaean ended after Atlantis war/sinking.
12th dyn/Moeris/Hercules/900/Atlantis war/sinking -> Saites/Hyksos/Minoan -> Trojan/Mycenaean -> sea peoples/19th/20th dyn/dorians/heracilds.

Gerald Massey's book is 'Book of Beginnings'. "Callisthenes & Phanodemus relate that the Athenians were the fathers of the Saitae. But Theopomus, on the contrary, affrims that they were a colony of the Saitae. Eusebius chronicles the tradition of the arrival of Kadmus with a company of Saitae, who founded Athens & Boeotian Thebes. They were of Egypt but he thought they last came from Sidon." Compare Atlantis account and Herodotus on Io/Europa.
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 16:34
Thanks for taking the time to reply, Arthur-Robin. I hope your web-strike is productive.
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  Quote soulmagi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2014 at 09:50
C
the story is not reliable as it is 4th Hand evidence. Unknown smudce translated to Egyptian and then into Greek, and the names in . th cases from unknown to Egyptian and then to Greek names. Solon heard the story from a Egyptian Priest and Solon told the tale to the Gandfather of Critias. Critias heard the tale when he was 10 years old from his Grandfather who was 90 years old. The tale was to be the basis of a play and the notes Critias refers to are I believe notes made for that play. I believe though that the tale is based on fact and believe it isCry
connected with the eruption of Thera.
The tidal wave created would flood Minoan Crete and Athens.
I believe Atlantis is the leader of a league of Phoenean. Settlements at war with Athens and Egypt.
The Hyksos take over North Egypt  and may have originated from Lebinon.
The Hyksos introduce the war chariot to Egypt which it is unknown to the
 Egyptian. Prior the Hyksos invasion.
Plato list the chariot as part of the Atlantean army.
The Strait may not be the one named by Plato as it is blocked by mud.
There was a strait between Egypt and Asia leading into the Red Sea which became silted up.
Instead of bigger than it may be that it should read between Lybia and Asia. Also as some suggest it could be it was 900 years prior Solon and not Solon.
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