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Order of the Dragon

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  Quote Surbel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Order of the Dragon
    Posted: 08-Jan-2006 at 15:14


  Every one is welcomed to post some information about that order or knights who was envolved.
 The Order of the Dragon (Lat: Societatis draconistrarum) was an institution similar to other chivalric orders of the time,modeled on the Order of St.George (1318). It was created in 1408 by Holy Roman Emperor
Sigismund(then the king of hungary). According to its statute ,wich survives in a copy dated 1707,the Order required its initiates to defend the Cross and fight its enemies,principally the Turks. The original order had twnty four members of the nobility,including such notable figures as:
-Sigismund of Luxembourg,King of Hungary,Emperor of Holy Roman Empire
  (after 1410)
-Despot Stefan Lazarevic of Serbia
-King Alfonso V of Aragon and Naples
-King Vladislav Jagello of Poland
-Grand Prince Vitovd of Lithuania
-Duke Ernst of Austria
-Christopher 3th,Duke of Bavaria and King of Denmark
-Thomas de Mowbray,Duke of Norfolk (after 1439)
-Vlad Tsepesh,Duke of Wallachia (after 1431)

 The Order of the Dragon adopted as it symbol in 1408 the image of a circular dragon with its tail coiled around its neck. On its back,from the base of its neck to its tail,was the red cross of St.George on the background of a silver field. With the expansion of the Order,other symbols were adopted,all variations on the theme of dragon and cross.

  Need some information about secret Order of the Dragon of St.George who had created Serbian Knight Milos Obilic.
 

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  Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 12:43
Did  all the Knights of the order wear full plate armour painted red as in Ford Copolla's Dracula?
Does anybody know?


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  Quote Surbel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 13:29
 
 They had a red cross on a silver background and black tunic.
Maby we can even find a connection with templars if we compare heraldic.
Templars wasn't treated so bad in Hungary like it was a huge problem on the west.
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  Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 16:22
The black tunic would make them look like the knights of the Teutonic Order,but the Red Cross perhaps has to do with  Templars influence.
I had read somewhere that the Hungarian kings used also  the Teutonic knights to strengthen their defences in Transylvania,is it so?
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 18:54

Originally posted by RomiosArktos

Did  all the Knights of the order wear full plate armour painted red as in Ford Copolla's Dracula?
Does anybody know?

I very much doubt it. That movie was so inaccurate in terms of historical representation and geographical representation, it was not even funny. For one thing, it depicts Dracula as a Transylvanian Hungarian, when he was a Wallachian Romanian. I am Romanian and when I first saw the movie, I thought that it was obvious the movie's producers had never set foot in Romania. While I don't really know much about the order of the dragon, I have the feeling that the movie is completely fictional.

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  Quote Surbel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 20:17
  Book:  Dracula - Prince of Many Faces, His Life and Times, page 169:

...at the head of an army of about 5000 soldiers, Matthias led the crusade to liberate Bosnia, with Dracula and the exiled Serbian despot Gregorevic under his command. 

 Hungarian king Matthias Korvin(1458-1490),son of Janos Hunjadi,renew a Serbian Despotovina in Hungary 1471.,exactly on todays Srem and local territories and Vuk Grgurevic was the first Despot of that Despotovina from 1471 to 1485.
 Betwen 1478 and 1482 more then 200.000 Serbians escape from ocupies teritories and settled in Hungary.




 
 
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  Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 12:18
Originally posted by Decebal


I very much doubt it. That movie was so inaccurate in terms of historical representation and geographical representation, it was not even funny. For one thing, it depicts Dracula as a Transylvanian Hungarian, when he was a Wallachian Romanian. I am Romanian and when I first saw the movie, I thought that it was obvious the movie's producers had never set foot in Romania. While I don't really know much about the order of the dragon, I have the feeling that the movie is completely fictional.


I must admit i liked this movie. As  you say it was fictional and i think it was intended to be so.However,it is pretty clear in the movie that voivode Vlad Dracula is a Wallachian noble.He speaks the Wallachian language(some phrases at least) and the priests in the chapel at his castle are Orthodox priests.This is obvious.The full plate armour must have been used extensively at that time throughout Europe and it is logical to assume that the Wallachians and other Balkan christian peoples like the Serbs or the Byzantines must have been influenced by the Hungarian nobility who used that kind of armour or by Italians(Genoese or Venetians) who fought in the East.
In Bram  Stoker's book,Dracula says that his ancestors were of Szekely origin.Is this right?I had read somewhere that one of Vlad's ancestors(Voyk or something like that) had come from Serbia.
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  Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 12:28
Originally posted by Surbel

  Book:  Dracula - Prince of Many Faces, His Life and Times, page 169:

...at the head of an army of about 5000 soldiers, Matthias led the crusade to liberate Bosnia, with Dracula and the exiled Serbian despot Gregorevic under his command. 

 Betwen 1478 and 1482 more then 200.000 Serbians escape from ocupies teritories and settled in Hungary.


Matthias Corvinus created the Black Guard(all the warriors painted their armour black) which consisted of Hussites from Bohemia,Germans(probably Saxons),Serbs and Poles and totalled 30.000 well-trained warriors.This army could still be used during the winter due to special training.They were really good much for the Ottomans.Maybe this is the army to which you are referring.
What happened to all these Serbs that migrated to Hungary.Were they assimilated or did they form a special community of their own?
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  Quote Surbel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 13:03
 Order of the Dragon was influenced by the  Carol Robert of Anjou  also called Charles Robert,Charles I of Hungary who established(Societas militae Sancti Georgii).
 Every time when Serbs try with revolution on there teritory with other help wich on the end didn't  arrived more people had escape to Hungary.
 Many citys carried the name from our countries. Until 1700 more then a milion people stled on Hungarian teritory.
 


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  Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 13:27
And then,did they go back in Serbia when it became an independent state
?I suppose that these people were subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Was there any serious Serb movement against  the Ottoman occupation after the battle of Kossovo and the great defeat of Hunyadi in Varna?
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  Quote Surbel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 14:33

Despot Đurađ Branković (Serbian Cyrillic: Ђурађ Бранкови 15;, Hungarian: Brankovics Gyrgy; ruled 1427 - 1456) was a Serbian monarch who built Smederevo, the new Serbian capital after the Battle of Kosovo. He was an ally of John Hunyadi in the fights against Turks.

After he was appointed as a successor for his uncle, despot Stefan Lazarević Djurdj's rule was marked by new conflicts and finally the fall of Kosovo and Metohia to the Turks. The campaign of the Cristian army led by the Hungarian nobleman John Hunyadi ended in 1448 in heavy defeat in a clash with Murad II's forces, in Kosovo Polje. This Battle was recognised as II Battle on Kosovo. This was the last concertive attempt in the Middle Ages to rout the Turks out of this part of Europe. Deemed by contemporaries the richest monarch in all of Europe (The French knight Bertrand de la Broquierre states that his annual income from the gold & silver mine of Novo Brdo amassed to about 200000 Venetian ducats.).

On link below you can see more about Đurađ Branković http://www.serbianunity.net/culture/history/Serb_History/Rul ers/Djuradj_Brankovic.html

 Exists many useful wbesites for those periods,but i only have them in Serbian,if i find something in english i can post are maby translate.
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  Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 15:50
It is a pity that the Christian people of the Balkans(Greeks,Serbs,Hungarians) were not able to defeat the Ottomans,although there were so many brave champions of christianity at that time like Lord Hunyadi,KonstantinosXI and many many other
Surbel,thanks for the info!
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 03:31
Originally posted by RomiosArktos

Originally posted by Decebal


I very much doubt it. That movie was so inaccurate in terms of historical representation and geographical representation, it was not even funny. For one thing, it depicts Dracula as a Transylvanian Hungarian, when he was a Wallachian Romanian. I am Romanian and when I first saw the movie, I thought that it was obvious the movie's producers had never set foot in Romania. While I don't really know much about the order of the dragon, I have the feeling that the movie is completely fictional.


I must admit i liked this movie. As  you say it was fictional and i think it was intended to be so.However,it is pretty clear in the movie that voivode Vlad Dracula is a Wallachian noble.He speaks the Wallachian language(some phrases at least) and the priests in the chapel at his castle are Orthodox priests.This is obvious.The full plate armour must have been used extensively at that time throughout Europe and it is logical to assume that the Wallachians and other Balkan christian peoples like the Serbs or the Byzantines must have been influenced by the Hungarian nobility who used that kind of armour or by Italians(Genoese or Venetians) who fought in the East.
In Bram  Stoker's book,Dracula says that his ancestors were of Szekely origin.Is this right?I had read somewhere that one of Vlad's ancestors(Voyk or something like that) had come from Serbia.
I think we have a simple explanation. Count Dracula and Vlad Dracul are two different person. Count Dracula is fictional while Vlad Dracul is historical. I think Stoker only used his name. As fas as I know originaly the name of the Count would have been Count Wampyre. Storker changed the name later, but not the storyline.

The Order of the Dragon:

It was a symbol of a political alliance led by Sigismund. Members were usually allied rulers and loyal barons. For example Pip of Ozora (Filippo Scolari) was nominally made to ban of Szrny/Severin in order to become a baron and thus a member.

As soon as the king died the order died with him.



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  Quote Surbel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 04:52
 About "Pipo",i have info,that he was born in Firence(Florenz,Italy) his familiy was in alliance with Medici family. The family was driven out and Pipo get Temisivary(Temisvar) and he spread renesance idea in Hungary.

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 05:19

Originally posted by Surbel

 About "Pipo",i have info,that he was born in Firence(Florenz,Italy) his familiy was in alliance with Medici family. The family was driven out and Pipo get Temisivary(Temisvar) and he spread renesance idea in Hungary.
He is one of my favourite historical character: an Italian born Hungarian baron with an exceptional career.

His family was noble, but poor, so he became a merchant's aide who was in connection with the Hungarian court. He was talented in financial matters soon he was a secretary of a prelate.

He became the overseer of the royal mine monopoly after a remarkable event. He was present one of the war-councils and he was able to sum the whole cost of the campaign in his head. This was extraordinary, because most of the council members were uneducated warrior-barons.

Finance had a low prestige and after he helped the king to beat down the Horvti rebellion, he became a true lord as ispn(=count) of Temes. As a general he fought against Venice, the Hussites, and the Ottomans. It is said that he conducted 18 (? or 21 I am not certain) succesful campaign against the Ottomans and their allies. He organized the construction of the border fortress sytem protecting Hungary more than a hundred years. (Documents of his age mentions him as the 5th most powerful man after the king.)

He became extremly popular in Italy during his voyage to Rome as a diplomat. Italians named him Pippo Spano (spano from Hungarian ispn=count) In Florence he appears in a fresco: Cycle of Famous Florentine Men and Women by Andrea del Castagno (now Galleria degli Uffizi) He even appears in Italian sayings ("ha piu fede in lui che gli Ungari nello spano")  "He trusts him more than the Hungarians in Spano."



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  Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 12:18
Pipo Scolari was a real hero!!!A man of honour.
Janos Hunyadi had also been in Italy.He had learnt there the new way of warfare.
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  Quote Sarmata Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 17:15
I always thought that the order of the dragon of st. george was started by Milos Obilic and his comrades in arms. On your picture there surbel isnt that Milos charging at the turkish sultan to kill him?
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  Quote BoFF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 20:51
Milos Obilic is not a hsitorical figure, and he could not have formed a knightly order. Actually, such an institution did not even exist in Serbia, if we are to believe written documents. Some indications do point that something similar might have been formed durign the reign of Stephen Dushan.
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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 22:41
Didn't the name Dragul-a itslef mean "son of dragon" or something of similar to that nature?
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 03:34
Originally posted by RomiosArktos


Matthias Corvinus created the Black Guard(all the warriors painted their armour black) which consisted of Hussites from Bohemia,Germans(probably Saxons),Serbs and Poles and totalled 30.000 well-trained warriors.This army could still be used during the winter due to special training.They were really good much for the Ottomans.Maybe this is the army to which you are referring.
In truth the mercenary army of Corvinus got his famous name (Black Army) after the king's death. The next king Vladilaus disbanded the Black Army and the unpaid mercenary became a cruel band of plunderers. They got their name because of their crimes.
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