Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Kashmir

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 89101112>
Author
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kashmir
    Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 20:52
Originally posted by Anujkhamar

I have been thinking about the following idea for some time now:

1) Free the border of any constraint (end to terrorism needed first)
2) Unify Kashmir in an administrative sense. They run themselves however all matters of security and defence are taken up by the country which controlled the land at the time.
3) Subsidise all tuition fees and lower business tax in the entire state, therefore trying to recover it's economy.

That will (like stated by the previous poster) thus create peace, meaning both countries can end this and carry on developing South Asia.

Obviously this plan will not be implemented for the forseeable future.
 
I have heard of this plan several times as its been proposed in the peace process b/w the two countries however I doesnt seem practical and would not really solve any problem. The prevailing tension, confrontation, and competition would still continue much after that, which is why many believe it to be a stop-gap or temporary break from the current state of insurrection. The issue of an independent Kashmir wouldnt be feasable either from an economic standpoint and the two rivals would then begin using the nation as a proxy location(end result being no diminishment of tension), furthermore, there is no real precedent for an independent Kashmir per se.  A final demarcation seems to be only 'real' solution to the Kashmir issue.  Within that final demarcation the aspirations of the Kashmiri people must be ascertained according to and as envisioned by the 1948 United Nations Plan.  I dont see why the UN cant send a peace force in now alongside the armed forces of the respective countries(India, Pakistan).  There, they would help bring some normalcy back to Indian-occupied Kashmir where the violence, insurrection and attrocities are taken place( the UN is currently in Azad Kashmir due to the devastating earthquake of October 8, albeit in small numbers & in a non-military humanitarian role).  This would have to be a bold decision on the part of both countries (with Pakistan dropping its claim to all of Kashmir - mainly Jammu, lower Ladahk, and India relinquishing control of the territories north of Chenab(which would act as the new border in this denslely populated part) and the region of Baltisitan whose natural affiliations are with the contagious regions of Pakistan.  The end result would be beneficial for both country.  India would have a more stable border, holding onto territories more homogenously contagious with its country and be able to remove its estimated 600,000 troops out which is a big drain on funds which could be better spent elsewhere and the same would be true for Pakistan, in that it would gain a stable border on the east, final closure to its stand on Kashmir, and no longer require to invest so heaviliy in military and nuclear arms, also spenting it in other badly needed social sectors.  Again, i would reiterate, the establishment of a properly demarcated border b/w these two countries would usher in an era of peace, tranquility and respectful co-existence between these two traditional rivals(something that has excaped both countries since their independence) and allow them to focus on more pressing issues at hand.Smile  Failure to solve this issue, will only escalate the situation further and further until a 'spark' does eventually take place, and then God forbid, all 'hell' (pardon my french!) breaks loose.
Back to Top
Anujkhamar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1027
  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 04:12
That would work for me in the most parts. I do not like the idea of peace keeping forces. Where wouldthey come from? Certainly not China, USA is strained for forces, the British would object to reentering the country, Russia favours India etc

Also, peace with Pakistan wouldnt cut the size of our military. We also have China to worry about, the country that altough people forget expeanded its borders very recently and is still trying.
Back to Top
Anujkhamar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1027
  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 17:25
I just thought that this must be posted. Somebody was talking about rigged elections in IOK before

======================================================
New Kashmir government sworn in
Voters in Pakistani-administered Kashmir
Voting earlier in the month was largely peaceful
A new government has taken power in Pakistani-administered Kashmir after elections which the opposition parties claimed were rigged.

Sardar Attiq Ahmed Khan, head of the All Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference (AJKMC), was sworn in as prime minister on Monday.

He replaces outgoing prime minister Sardar Sikander Hayat Khan.

The new prime minister took his oath in a ceremony held at the ruins of the last year's devastating earthquake.

The quake killed 73,000 people and made about three million people homeless.

Mr Khan said his government's priorities would be to work "to reconstruct the earthquake affected areas, rehabilitate the people made homeless because of the quake and to help achieve the freedom of Indian occupied Kashmir and its union with Pakistan".

The BBC's Zulfiqar Ali in Muzaffarabad, capital of Pakistani-administered Kashmir, says the region formally has an autonomous status, with its own constitution, flag, parliament and Supreme Court.

But our correspondent says many local politicians complain in fact it is largely governed by Islamabad.

Barred

The AJKMC was formed in 1932 and is Kashmir's oldest political grouping.

It gained power by winning 31 seats in the vote earlier this month for the 49-seat assembly, the lower house of a two-chamber legislature.

The religious parties - which were widely acknowledged for their relief efforts in the earthquake period - did not perform well.

Almost 17 pro-Pakistan groups and more than 360 candidates took part in the elections.

But more than 50 pro-independence candidates were barred after they refused to support a mandatory rule that all parties must support the idea of all of Kashmir joining Pakistan.

Our correspondent says it is the first time in the recent history of Pakistani-administered Kashmir that all the opposition parties have claimed the elections were rigged.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5211686.stm
Back to Top
Aarya View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 17-Jul-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Aarya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 21:41
Well why Kashmir, I ask.....
       Do u seem to say that kashmir has a different culture, so is with every single state of India even more antique than kashmir itself...What has kashmir acheived ..nothing over the 5000 year of its history but consider with other Indian states they have eveolved a classical dance forms, rich literature, and a few classical languages...
    SO the argumetn that being diffeent culture doesnt support ur argument for an independeat kashmir...
    5000 years of Kahmiri hisoty has been drencehd in the Vedic culture and a few centuries back a fanantic muslims emperor conmvetd them to muslimsm, so Islam is just 400 and that too not completley converted the state.....That doesnt deter the muslims fanatics to demand a seperate country......Now the OWrld understands the slamic way....why do u fool people
    thaen why it is that Kahmiri people want separate country for themselves...
It is plane and simple that becoz they are muslim they demand a country..This has been the case with the very existence of Pak and Bangladesh....
   Now with Kashmiri the so called aspiration whcih are infact nothing but a small effrot otwards the larger picture of Islamising the entire world and converting the infedl world to islam...thas the reason behind it...
  Islam is the inspiration nothing more......
   U talk abt heaven on Earth, hypocriys is waht I term that too be, The n native place is the heaven for any individual,
     And what next..after kashmir, Anuj kumar seem to act  like a scholar, but he is like gandhi a person who is not connected with reality a Utopian, which is only dangerous than anything rewarding...
  What next after kashmir, does ur muslims Borthers will back off, I dont know when are u going to be out of ur suicidal world.......
   Next would be Uttar Pradesh and then would be the isalmised parts of North Eastrn.....
 thats the way Islam goes....

Back to Top
Anujkhamar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1027
  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 06:01
Originally posted by Aarya


     And what next..after kashmir, Anuj kumar seem to act  like a scholar, but he is like gandhi a person who is not connected with reality a Utopian, which is only dangerous than anything rewarding...


and watch another 60 000 people die? My main point is that all 4 governments (India, Pakistan, Kashmiri's and Chinese) should take some decisive action to end this now.  The point I was trying to make was that way for this to end quickly and without bloodshed is by giving them independance from all 3 countries. Give them a few years, see what happens. If the government fails it backs up our point that the country won't work. If it does work then its up to them.

The other alternatives are either we invade or Pakistan does. Now look in the news. Can you see that happening? Neither country has the balls to take all of Kashmir by force, which is why both have stalled for 60 years.

What angers me is Chinese presence in Kashmir. They simply have no right to be there.


Originally posted by Aarya


   Next would be Uttar Pradesh and then would be the isalmised parts of North Eastrn.....
 thats the way Islam goes....


Come on, Uttar Pradesh will never become a majority muslim state. All of a sudden there you must write to the government to convert. They're taking their own measures to protect themselves. Infact, you could say they are the middle of our country, its the most populous area in India.  There is no chance that any of the other states will split up. They all have unity with India (with a few exceptions). The problem is that parts of Kashmir don't, which makes it easier to pick off bit by bit like you said.

Edited by Anujkhamar - 27-Jul-2006 at 06:05
Back to Top
Aarya View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 17-Jul-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Aarya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 11:20
I dont know if u are connected with the situation of present day India.....
  In Kerala Mulsims and Christians account for nearly 42% of the Population, now u can see the effects of it in the functioning of the GOVT over there...
  A snippet of scuh effects ; madani who was responsible for Coimbatore Blasts was urged to release by the Kerala Asembly from the T>N Prison....
   And thuis isnt the malabar area is overwhelmingly populated and the behaviour was clearly evident as early as the Moopla tiots in Kerala during Khilafat movement of the idot gandhi and his perceived Mulsim brothers...
 Whya they massacred, becoz kalifat in Turkey fell...This is the reason for the genocide..Such reasons prompt such a cult to massacre...
  Utrtar pradesh norther borders adjoining Nepal are heavily poplated by Muslismm and the recent years has saw Madrasa all over spranging up and u can see the result of it with increase riots happening in UP over the last year some 6 or seven riots happened , with a signifiant loss of Life including BJP MLA, another ML'a son which prmpted the MLA inside the assemly in tear begging for a CBI probe....
   North Eastern States fighting for a seperate country is becoz Religion in North East is Christian..they want a Christian Republic in naga land..Oncce search in the Web u'll get hold.....
    Down the line in 50 years Muslims will be some 40% if the trends continue....Now can u imagine the situation.....
        In some states they will entirely be in majoritylike in Assam, Keala and few large chunks in UP....
  TIs reality, if u cant see it happening thats wahtexactly Gandhi and Nehru the so called Visionaries didnt see it either out of self indulgence... most probably not that they dont know but it was deliberate with their Utopian viws...

Back to Top
Jay. View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1207
  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2006 at 22:15
Shown in green is the region under Pakistani administration. The dark-brown region is the Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh under Indian administration, while the Aksai Chin is an area of Kashmir acceeded to China by Pakistan that's under Chinese administration.

I have one question: In some regions of Kashmir, it is completely inaccessable, due to poor transportation systems. Why is this? Is it because of the terrain?
Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
Only Unity Can Save the Serb
Back to Top
TeldeInduz View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 21:03
Originally posted by Jay.

Shown in green is the region under Pakistani administration. The dark-brown region is the Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh under Indian administration, while the Aksai Chin is an area of Kashmir acceeded to China by Pakistan that's under Chinese administration.

I have one question: In some regions of Kashmir, it is completely inaccessable, due to poor transportation systems. Why is this? Is it because of the terrain?
 
It's inaccesible because there's a war going on, and some regions are just simply inhospitable, like Siachen and other areas. Lack of development doesnt help either.
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
Back to Top
TeldeInduz View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 21:06
Originally posted by Anujkhamar

I just thought that this must be posted. Somebody was talking about rigged elections in IOK before

======================================================
New Kashmir government sworn in
Voters in Pakistani-administered Kashmir
Voting earlier in the month was largely peaceful
A new government has taken power in Pakistani-administered Kashmir after elections which the opposition parties claimed were rigged.

Sardar Attiq Ahmed Khan, head of the All Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference (AJKMC), was sworn in as prime minister on Monday.

He replaces outgoing prime minister Sardar Sikander Hayat Khan.

The new prime minister took his oath in a ceremony held at the ruins of the last year's devastating earthquake.

The quake killed 73,000 people and made about three million people homeless.

Mr Khan said his government's priorities would be to work "to reconstruct the earthquake affected areas, rehabilitate the people made homeless because of the quake and to help achieve the freedom of Indian occupied Kashmir and its union with Pakistan".

The BBC's Zulfiqar Ali in Muzaffarabad, capital of Pakistani-administered Kashmir, says the region formally has an autonomous status, with its own constitution, flag, parliament and Supreme Court.

But our correspondent says many local politicians complain in fact it is largely governed by Islamabad.

Barred

The AJKMC was formed in 1932 and is Kashmir's oldest political grouping.

It gained power by winning 31 seats in the vote earlier this month for the 49-seat assembly, the lower house of a two-chamber legislature.

The religious parties - which were widely acknowledged for their relief efforts in the earthquake period - did not perform well.

Almost 17 pro-Pakistan groups and more than 360 candidates took part in the elections.

But more than 50 pro-independence candidates were barred after they refused to support a mandatory rule that all parties must support the idea of all of Kashmir joining Pakistan.

Our correspondent says it is the first time in the recent history of Pakistani-administered Kashmir that all the opposition parties have claimed the elections were rigged.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5211686.stm
 
Reason why all the opposition parties can claim this now is because of the political freedom all the parties enjoy, not to mention the press. The elections in Azad Kashmir were monitored by Pakistani as well as international observers, who watched the vote count. Pro independence parties cannot be allowed to compete until the Kashmir situation is sorted out across the border. Besides this, the Kashmiris can change the constitution if they like.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 30-Jul-2006 at 21:08
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
Back to Top
TeldeInduz View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 21:14
Originally posted by Aarya

Well why Kashmir, I ask.....
       Do u seem to say that kashmir has a different culture, so is with every single state of India even more antique than kashmir itself...What has kashmir acheived ..nothing over the 5000 year of its history but consider with other Indian states they have eveolved a classical dance forms, rich literature, and a few classical languages...
    SO the argumetn that being diffeent culture doesnt support ur argument for an independeat kashmir...
    5000 years of Kahmiri hisoty has been drencehd in the Vedic culture and a few centuries back a fanantic muslims emperor conmvetd them to muslimsm, so Islam is just 400 and that too not completley converted the state.....That doesnt deter the muslims fanatics to demand a seperate country......Now the OWrld understands the slamic way....why do u fool people
    thaen why it is that Kahmiri people want separate country for themselves...
It is plane and simple that becoz they are muslim they demand a country..This has been the case with the very existence of Pak and Bangladesh....
   Now with Kashmiri the so called aspiration whcih are infact nothing but a small effrot otwards the larger picture of Islamising the entire world and converting the infedl world to islam...thas the reason behind it...
  Islam is the inspiration nothing more......
   U talk abt heaven on Earth, hypocriys is waht I term that too be, The n native place is the heaven for any individual,
     And what next..after kashmir, Anuj kumar seem to act  like a scholar, but he is like gandhi a person who is not connected with reality a Utopian, which is only dangerous than anything rewarding...
  What next after kashmir, does ur muslims Borthers will back off, I dont know when are u going to be out of ur suicidal world.......
   Next would be Uttar Pradesh and then would be the isalmised parts of North Eastrn.....
 thats the way Islam goes....

 
Just give it up, Kashmiris do not want to be a part of India. Kashmiris have their own culture, it wasnt developed by India LOL They even go on strikes when Indian politicians visit them. It's clear who the Kashmiris side with.
 
 
India strike shuts Kashmir for second day
Sat Jul 29, 4:19 AM ET

SRINAGAR, India (AFP) - A strike protesting against a visit by India's president to Indian Kashmir shut much of the region for a second day, while four soldiers were reportedly hurt in a rebel attack. 
 
Streets in Indian Kashmir's main city of Srinagar were virtually deserted as shops, banks, businesses and schools closed in protest over President Abdul Kalam's two-day visit, and most traffic was off the roads on Saturday.
 
Other parts of the state were also hit by the strike called by the hardline wing of the separatist alliance Hurriyat and backed by the powerful Islamic rebel group Hizbul Mujahedin, which is battling New Delhi's rule in the Muslim-majority region.
 
Security was tight for Kalam's visit. Police reported four soldiers were injured when militants attacked an army convoy south of Srinagar on Saturday with grenades and rifle fire, police said.
 
Kalam arrived Friday in Srinagar to attend celebrations marking the diamond jubilee of Indian Kashmir's top court and meet government officials and students.
 
Hurriyat said it had "nothing personal" against Kalam, who is Hindu- majority India's third Muslim president.
 
But the group said it called for the protest shutdown as Kalam holds the post of "supreme commander" of India's armed forces which it accuses of "committing human rights abuses."
 
New Delhi says it probes charges of abuses and punishes those found guilty.
 
On Friday, Kalam urged that civilians in Indian Kashmir be given "special security" if they want to become involved in New Delhi's fight against the 17-year-old insurgency.
 
Rebels often target people they suspect of helping Indian troops.
The insurgency has left more than 44,000 people dead by official count and at least double that number by the separatists' tally.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 30-Jul-2006 at 21:15
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
Back to Top
TeldeInduz View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 22:10
Reasonably neutral video on Kashmir here.
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 30-Jul-2006 at 22:11
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
Back to Top
Anujkhamar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1027
  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 06:12
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

India strike shuts Kashmir for second day
Sat Jul 29, 4:19 AM ET

SRINAGAR, India (AFP) - A strike protesting against a visit by India's president to Indian Kashmir shut much of the region for a second day, while four soldiers were reportedly hurt in a rebel attack. 
 
Streets in Indian Kashmir's main city of Srinagar were virtually deserted as shops, banks, businesses and schools closed in protest over President Abdul Kalam's two-day visit, and most traffic was off the roads on Saturday.
 
Other parts of the state were also hit by the strike called by the hardline wing of the separatist alliance Hurriyat and backed by the powerful Islamic rebel group Hizbul Mujahedin, which is battling New Delhi's rule in the Muslim-majority region.
 
Security was tight for Kalam's visit. Police reported four soldiers were injured when militants attacked an army convoy south of Srinagar on Saturday with grenades and rifle fire, police said.
 
Kalam arrived Friday in Srinagar to attend celebrations marking the diamond jubilee of Indian Kashmir's top court and meet government officials and students.
 
Hurriyat said it had "nothing personal" against Kalam, who is Hindu- majority India's third Muslim president.
 
But the group said it called for the protest shutdown as Kalam holds the post of "supreme commander" of India's armed forces which it accuses of "committing human rights abuses."
 
New Delhi says it probes charges of abuses and punishes those found guilty.
 
On Friday, Kalam urged that civilians in Indian Kashmir be given "special security" if they want to become involved in New Delhi's fight against the 17-year-old insurgency.
 
Rebels often target people they suspect of helping Indian troops.
The insurgency has left more than 44,000 people dead by official count and at least double that number by the separatists' tally.


So your telling me you don't know how it works? You have a few bastards tdo wrong things, which is present in any army, not only India's/ Then the separatists exploit it as full as they can, start telling peopl, "That guy over their runs the army, you know, the one that'ordered' those people to do wikid things? The one that is 'oppressing' our people and is responsible for the deaths of our brothers?" followed by the peer pressure of actually doing it? Let's face it, if some of those shops remained open (some not all) then the owners would hav been labbelled as traitors to Jammu and Kashmir and later beaten up.

Do you have any idea how strikes in India work?

And don't give me that BS in the post before about how the parties cant run. Pakistan is fully stopping people from expressing their free will.  Would it happen in the UK? They even have scum like the BNP allowed to run, Pakistan can't allow parties that want to leave the country to run? I mean, its obvious they want to leave. It's only their free will that is being oppressedd i guess? That can be shoved to one side cant it?

Look accross the border. How many Separatist parties are there in Jammu and Kashmir? But in Pakistan the Kashmii's are supposed to have Autonomy. It looks like this autonomy is wrapped up 10 layers of censorship.
Back to Top
TeldeInduz View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 12:43
Originally posted by Anujkhamar

Originally posted by TeldeInduz

India strike shuts Kashmir for second day
Sat Jul 29, 4:19 AM ET

SRINAGAR, India (AFP) - A strike protesting against a visit by India's president to Indian Kashmir shut much of the region for a second day, while four soldiers were reportedly hurt in a rebel attack. 
 
Streets in Indian Kashmir's main city of Srinagar were virtually deserted as shops, banks, businesses and schools closed in protest over President Abdul Kalam's two-day visit, and most traffic was off the roads on Saturday.
 
Other parts of the state were also hit by the strike called by the hardline wing of the separatist alliance Hurriyat and backed by the powerful Islamic rebel group Hizbul Mujahedin, which is battling New Delhi's rule in the Muslim-majority region.
 
Security was tight for Kalam's visit. Police reported four soldiers were injured when militants attacked an army convoy south of Srinagar on Saturday with grenades and rifle fire, police said.
 
Kalam arrived Friday in Srinagar to attend celebrations marking the diamond jubilee of Indian Kashmir's top court and meet government officials and students.
 
Hurriyat said it had "nothing personal" against Kalam, who is Hindu- majority India's third Muslim president.
 
But the group said it called for the protest shutdown as Kalam holds the post of "supreme commander" of India's armed forces which it accuses of "committing human rights abuses."
 
New Delhi says it probes charges of abuses and punishes those found guilty.
 
On Friday, Kalam urged that civilians in Indian Kashmir be given "special security" if they want to become involved in New Delhi's fight against the 17-year-old insurgency.
 
Rebels often target people they suspect of helping Indian troops.
The insurgency has left more than 44,000 people dead by official count and at least double that number by the separatists' tally.


So your telling me you don't know how it works? You have a few bastards tdo wrong things, which is present in any army, not only India's/ Then the separatists exploit it as full as they can, start telling peopl, "That guy over their runs the army, you know, the one that'ordered' those people to do wikid things? The one that is 'oppressing' our people and is responsible for the deaths of our brothers?" followed by the peer pressure of actually doing it? Let's face it, if some of those shops remained open (some not all) then the owners would hav been labbelled as traitors to Jammu and Kashmir and later beaten up.
 
Even the commisioner in the video I sent the link of says that Indian Army is committing these atrocities. It's a long video, but about in three quarters the way through. Militants also intimidate people, but the militants themselves are Kashmiri people at least, fighting I guess for what most Kashmiris want.


Do you have any idea how strikes in India work?

And don't give me that BS in the post before about how the parties cant run. Pakistan is fully stopping people from expressing their free will.  Would it happen in the UK? They even have scum like the BNP allowed to run, Pakistan can't allow parties that want to leave the country to run? I mean, its obvious they want to leave. It's only their free will that is being oppressedd i guess? That can be shoved to one side cant it?
 
No it can't be shoved aside. You know what happened in East Pakistan back in 1971 when Pakistan allowed these independence parties to run. There is not a problem with independence parties running as such, like in Balochistan, but until the dispute is resolved there can be no completely autonomous region of Kashmir, because this would end in strategic defeat for Pakistan. The Indus rivers pass through some of the regions of Kashmir and it can be used politically if the Kashmiris who become independent, ask Pakistan Army to leave and then are invaded by Indian Army troops. That sort of situation has to be avoided. Balochistan already has independence parties running. Pro Pakistan parties are quite popular in Azad Kashmir, even against independents.
 

Look accross the border. How many Separatist parties are there in Jammu and Kashmir? But in Pakistan the Kashmii's are supposed to have Autonomy. It looks like this autonomy is wrapped up 10 layers of censorship.
 
I think you're missing the point here, elections in Indian occupied Kashmir must be within the Indian constitution, so any party that participates must do so within those rules, which include not seeking independence. Hizb actually stated this and didnt participate because they dont want administration of Kashmir, they want its independence at least from India. If you look at Azad Kashmir, you have the same situation where independence parties dont/arent allowed to compete, but there is no violence as such there, and people do vote in pro Pakistani parties.
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 31-Jul-2006 at 12:44
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
Back to Top
TeldeInduz View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 12:54
As for the loyalties of Kashmiris in Indian Kashmir, you can see where they lie even from an Indian article.
 
Kashmir mobiles ring in Pak tunes
Aarti Tikoo
[ 27 Sep, 2004 1530hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]
 
 
RSS Feeds| SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates
SRINAGAR: This is infiltration no one will be able to check. For it cant be seen, and comes over virtual borders. This is not terrorism, but has the potential to turn into an ugly issue of territorial loyalty.
 
In Kashmir, where people find the National Anthem, Jan Gan Man, unfamiliar, Pakistani national anthem, Pak Sarzameen Shadhbaan, has become a favourite.
 
So much so that, Bharat Sanchar Nigam Limited (BSNL) mobiles in Kashmir are buzzing with Pakistani national anthem ringtones.
 
School kids, college-goers and Kashmir University students have their phones playing their favourite tunes that have come all the way from Pakistan.
 
"I received it from one of my friends in Srinagar," Feroz Ahmad, a professional in his 20s told Times of India .
 
In turn, his friend received it from his friend. But the ringtone actually came from the people who have friends and relatives in Pakistan.
 
"It has become a long chain and it is demanded by friends. I too have sent this ringtone to at least one dozen friends," Majid says.
 
Pak Sarzameen Shadhbaaan is a well-liked in Kashmir as against the National Anthem, says Aaftab Wani, an unemployed youth.
 
Aaftab throws light on the reasons to this peculiarity. One, in Kashmir, the National Anthem was never taught to students in schools or colleges. Two, the hatred for India, which is growing ever since 1947, that finally resulted in militancy in 1989-90. Three, the natural love for Pakistan. People in Kashmir feel closer to the theocratic nation -- demographically, geographical and religiously. "It has been like that ever since 1947. We saw and knew more of Pakistan in more than one ways. We used to hear Pakistan Radio or BBC instead of All India Radio ; we know names of Pakistani states, their daily temperatures and cricketers," Aaftab says.
 
He adds, "In 1990, when insurgency erupted in Kashmir Valley, people set their watches half an hour behind Indian time so as to match the Pakistani time."
 
"We still feel as a natural supporter of Pakistani Cricket team," says 60 years old Aslam Beig of Baramulla.
 
Even now, Pakistan's Independence Day is celebrated by hoisting green flags around and August 15 - India's Independence Day is marked as Black Day, he points out.
 
Besides, there are five Pakistani TV channels Geo , Q , Ary Arynews and PTV currently running through cable network in Kashmir.
 
"The latest trends in outfits, make-up and other things are adopted here because we feel part of the Muslim society in Pakistan," says Naseema, a Kashmir University student whose wardrobe is full of Pakistani salwaar kameez.
 
Ali Mohammad, a taxi driver, however says, "This does not mean Kashmiri people want to accede with Pakistan. People just feel closer to Pakistan."
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 31-Jul-2006 at 12:55
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
Back to Top
Digvijay View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jul-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 194
  Quote Digvijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 00:13
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

 
Just give it up, Kashmiris do not want to be a part of India. Kashmiris have their own culture, it wasnt developed by India LOL


Kashmir does not have its own culture. It was a centre of Hinduism and there are many places in Kashmir which are mentioned in Puranas.  Name Kashmir is also formed from an Indian sage: Kashyap Muni.
Kashmir = Kashyap + Mer (Mountain) i.e literally the mountain where sage Kashyap worships.

Kashmir is the home of "Kashmiri Pandits" who have been living in Kashmir for thousands of years. First Prime Minister of India, Nehru, was a Kashmiri Pandit. They owned pretty much all the land in Kashmir and were extremely rich businessmen. After the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits at the
 hands of Muslim terrorists, many pandits have been forced to vacate there large estates.  This is akin to what China has done to Tibet, i.e kicked out the local buddhist culture by driving out all the buddhist tibetans.

But do not worry days are not far when the Pakistan occupied kashmir (POK) would cease to be in Paki control.

And do not forget that it was the folly of our first prime minister, Nehru , which allowed the creation of POK. General Thimayya had routed the pakistani invading army from most of Kashmir and was set to retake muzaffarabad etc, but Nehru stopped him because he took the matter to UN.  Thimayya was very upset and nursed this grievance till he went to his grave that he was not allowed to drive out paki invaders from all of kashmir.

-Digs
Back to Top
Digvijay View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jul-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 194
  Quote Digvijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 00:34
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Even the commisioner in the video I sent the link of says that Indian Army is committing these atrocities. It's a long video, but about in three quarters the way through. Militants also intimidate people, but the militants themselves are Kashmiri people at least, fighting I guess for what most Kashmiris want.

No. pakistani sponsored terrorists have etnically cleansed kashmiri brahmans from Kashmir. Close to 500,000 kashmir pandits have been forced to leave kashmir because of these pakistani/arab/al qaeda terrorists. These claims of Kashmiris fighting a war is all nonsesne. What is happening in Kashmir is just paki sposnored terrorism.

No it can't be shoved aside. You know what happened in East Pakistan back in 1971 when Pakistan allowed these independence parties to run. There is not a problem with independence parties running as such, like in Balochistan, but until the dispute is resolved there can be no completely autonomous region of Kashmir, because this would end in strategic defeat for Pakistan. The Indus rivers pass through some of the regions of Kashmir and it can be used politically if the Kashmiris who become independent, ask Pakistan Army to leave and then are invaded by Indian Army troops. That sort of situation has to be avoided. Balochistan already has independence parties running. Pro Pakistan parties are quite popular in Azad Kashmir, even against independents.

POK will be India's soon, despite the presence of Pakistani army (Paki army has lost four battles to Indian army in last 60 years or so).

 
I think you're missing the point here, elections in Indian occupied Kashmir must be within the Indian constitution, so any party that participates must do so within those rules, which include not seeking independence. Hizb actually stated this and didnt participate because they dont want administration of Kashmir, they want its independence at least from India. If you look at Azad Kashmir, you have the same situation where independence parties dont/arent allowed to compete, but there is no violence as such there, and people do vote in pro Pakistani parties.
 
There is no Azad Kashmir. It is Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.  And no matter how hard you try you cannot convince anyone that India is occupying kashmir. Kashmir was, is and will remain Indian. 

Back to Top
TeldeInduz View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 00:37
Originally posted by Digvijay

Originally posted by TeldeInduz

 
Just give it up, Kashmiris do not want to be a part of India. Kashmiris have their own culture, it wasnt developed by India LOL


Kashmir does not have its own culture. It was a centre of Hinduism and there are many places in Kashmir which are mentioned in Puranas.  Name Kashmir is also formed from an Indian sage: Kashyap Muni.
Kashmir = Kashyap + Mer (Mountain) i.e literally the mountain where sage Kashyap worships.
 
 
Been through this before. Kashmir comes from "Ka" and "Shimeer" - dessicated water.

Kashmir is the home of "Kashmiri Pandits" who have been living in Kashmir for thousands of years. First Prime Minister of India, Nehru, was a Kashmiri Pandit. They owned pretty much all the land in Kashmir and were extremely rich businessmen. After the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits at the
 hands of Muslim terrorists, many pandits have been forced to vacate there large estates.  This is akin to what China has done to Tibet, i.e kicked out the local buddhist culture by driving out all the buddhist tibetans.
 
Kashmiri Pandits have always been a minority in Kashmir. The percentage has not changed since partition and has slightly increased compared to Muslims, which suggests more Kashmiri Muslims have been killed than "Pandits".

But do not worry days are not far when the Pakistan occupied kashmir (POK) would cease to be in Paki control.
 
Lol!! Hardly, there's no violence in Azad Kashmir.. All the violence is on your side. Even the Indian Kashmiri population are hoisting Pakistani flags now!!

 

And do not forget that it was the folly of our first prime minister, Nehru , which allowed the creation of POK. General Thimayya had routed the pakistani invading army from most of Kashmir and was set to retake muzaffarabad etc, but Nehru stopped him because he took the matter to UN.  Thimayya was very upset and nursed this grievance till he went to his grave that he was not allowed to drive out paki invaders from all of kashmir.

-Digs
 
Nehru went to the UN under Article 35 after being convinced by Mountbatten. He ended up with a string of UN resolutions against him, and a plebiscite to be arranged, as well as a comment by the British delegate at the UN that Pakistan was in no way involved with the tribesmen joining with the Poonch resistance in Kashmir.
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 01-Aug-2006 at 00:38
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
Back to Top
Digvijay View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jul-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 194
  Quote Digvijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 01:00
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Originally posted by Digvijay

Originally posted by TeldeInduz

 
Just give it up, Kashmiris do not want to be a part of India. Kashmiris have their own culture, it wasnt developed by India LOL


Kashmir does not have its own culture. It was a centre of Hinduism and there are many places in Kashmir which are mentioned in Puranas.  Name Kashmir is also formed from an Indian sage: Kashyap Muni.
Kashmir = Kashyap + Mer (Mountain) i.e literally the mountain where sage Kashyap worships.
 
 
Been through this before. Kashmir comes from "Ka" and "Shimeer" - dessicated water.

Some people like you who are politically motivated just never learn. Kashmir is mentioned in Puranas. Does your shimeer nonsense finds mention in any text of anitquity?  No.


Kashmir is the home of "Kashmiri Pandits" who have been living in Kashmir for thousands of years. First Prime Minister of India, Nehru, was a Kashmiri Pandit. They owned pretty much all the land in Kashmir and were extremely rich businessmen. After the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits at the
 hands of Muslim terrorists, many pandits have been forced to vacate there large estates.  This is akin to what China has done to Tibet, i.e kicked out the local buddhist culture by driving out all the buddhist tibetans.
 
Kashmiri Pandits have always been a minority in Kashmir. The percentage has not changed since partition and has slightly increased compared to Muslims, which suggests more Kashmiri Muslims have been killed than "Pandits".


500,000 Kashmir pandits have had to relocate out of Kashmir due to ethnic cleansing by Paki sponsored terrorists. Every CM, wether is Mufti or Ghulam come up with grand plans to have them come back. 

But do not worry days are not far when the Pakistan occupied kashmir (POK) would cease to be in Paki control.
 
Lol!! Hardly, there's no violence in Azad Kashmir.. All the violence is on your side. Even the Indian Kashmiri population are hoisting Pakistani flags now!!

Oh really. And where do you think Pakistan trains all these terrorists?
 

And do not forget that it was the folly of our first prime minister, Nehru , which allowed the creation of POK. General Thimayya had routed the pakistani invading army from most of Kashmir and was set to retake muzaffarabad etc, but Nehru stopped him because he took the matter to UN.  Thimayya was very upset and nursed this grievance till he went to his grave that he was not allowed to drive out paki invaders from all of kashmir.

-Digs
 
Nehru went to the UN under Article 35 after being convinced by Mountbatten. He ended up with a string of UN resolutions against him, and a plebiscite to be arranged, as well as a comment by the British delegate at the UN that Pakistan was in no way involved with the tribesmen joining with the Poonch resistance in Kashmir.


Pakistanis love to lie. Let us expose your lies:

Soldiers of Pakistani army on leave, aided by tribesmen of NWFP, led by Pakistani army officers attacked Kashmir on 22 October 1947, along the Jhelum valley road. The chief of operations was Major-General Akbar Khan of the Pakistan army using the pseudonym General Tariq. [1]. There objective was to celebrate Id on October 26 at Srinagar, with Jinnah riding in triumph into the capital of Kashmir. The undefended city of Domel was the first to fall. Brigadier Rajendra Singh, Chief of Staff of Kashmir State, organized a force of 150 men at Garhi and checked the advance of Pakistani army. By 26 October Pakistani army had only managed to reach Baramulla instead of Srinagar. Pakistani troops committed horrendous crimes against Hindus and Europeans living in the valley. Robert Trumbull, of New York Times sent this dispatch, published on 10 November:

The city had been stripped of its wealth and young women before the Pakistanis fled in terror, at midnight friday, before the advancing Indian army. Surviving residents estimate that 3000 of there townsmen including four Europeans and a retired British army officer, Colonel Dykes, and his pregnant wife were slain. St Joseph Franciscan Convent and the convent hospital was stormed and four nuns were shot.

Pakistan kept insisting that it was not involved but foreign journalists quickly exposed there lie. Alan Moorehead of the Observer (London) reported that recruitment for the invasion had been going on not only in NWFP but all of Pakistan[2]. Trumbull secretly interviewed American mercenary, Russell K. Haight Jr. who fought along with Pakistanis[2].:

Mr Haight also found Pakistan army personnel running the Azad Kashmir radio station, relaying messages through there own Pakistan army receivers, organizing and managing Azad encampments in Pakistan, and supplying uniforms, food, arms and ammunition which, he understood, came from Pakistan army stores through such subterfuges as the 'loss' of ammunition shipments..Mr Haight charaterized the Azad Kashmir provisional government, headed by Sardar Mohammed Ibrahim Khan, as 'Pakistan puppets'. He also deeply implicated Pakistan government officials, notable the Premier of the NWFP.

Evidence emerged from within Pakistan itself, Michael Brecher quotes an appeal made by the Minister of Health for Sind:

to all trained and demobilized soldiers to proceed as volunteers to the Kashmir front.[3].

British officers and officials working in Pakistan had got wind of the impending invasion some time before it happened. A letter Sir George Cunningham, governor of the NWFP, wrote to General R.M.M Lockhart, Commander-in-Chief of the Indian Army, before the attack ended with the postscript:

Some people up here have been acting very foolishly. You will know what I mean by the time this letter reaches you.

General Frank Messervy, Commander-in-Chief in Pakistan, formally advised Liaqat against such adventurism, and repeated his advice before flying to London on work.

Indian Government launched Operation JAK to defeat the Pakistan army. V.P.Menon wrote:

Never in the history of warfare has there been an operation like the airlift of Indian troops to Srinagar on 27 October and on subsequent days, an operation put through with no previous thought, let alone organized planning, and at such remarkably short notice... In the early hours of morning of 27 October over a hundred civillian aircraft and R.I.A.F (Royal Indian Air Force) planes were mobilised to fly troops, equipment and supplies to Srinagar. The R.I.A.F and civillian pilots and ground crews rose to the occasion and worked heroically to make the airlift a success.

Lord Mountbatten wrote:

in all his war experience he had never heard of an airlift of this nature being put into operation at such a short notice and he complimented all concerned on the astonishing performance.

When Jinnah learnt that Indian troops had reached Srinagar, he ordered Sir Francis Mudie, Governor of Punjab, to phone General Sir Douglas Gracey, acting chief in absence of General Douglas Messervey, to send Pakistan army into Kashmir via the Banihal pass and Rawalpindi Srinagar route. Gracey refused to take orders from Jinnah and told him that he would need orders from Field Marshall Auchinleck, the Supreme Commander. Auchinleck told Jinnah on 28 October that Kashmir was legally part of India and sending the Pakistan army would amount to a formal declaration of war. And if Pakistan went to war, Auchinleck said, he would withdraw every British officer serving in the Pakistan army. Jinnah was stumped[2].

By morning of 8 November Major General Kalwant Singh and Brigadier L.P.Sen had reached Shalteng the stronghold of Pakistani army and showed them what war was all about. Battle lasted eight hours and the Pakistanis were routed. They left 300 dead behind. Soon winter snow helped Pakistanis as Indian army could not advance any further. Next spring and summer Indian army had major successes and Pakistan gave up its pretencce and formally entered war. Major-General K.S.Thimmaya, who succeeded Kalwant Singh, was confident--and he would nurse this complaint all through his life--that he would have taken Muzaffarabad had he not been stopped by the politicians[2].

  1.  Hodson, H.V. (1969). The Great Divide: Britain, India, Pakistan.
  2. Akbar, M.J. (2002). Kashmir Behind the vale.
  3.  Brecher, Michael (1953). The Struggle for Kashmir.

-Digs



Edited by Digvijay - 01-Aug-2006 at 01:01
Back to Top
Digvijay View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jul-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 194
  Quote Digvijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 01:06
Originally posted by Jay.

Shown in green is the region under Pakistani administration. The dark-brown region is the Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh under Indian administration, while the Aksai Chin is an area of Kashmir acceeded to China by Pakistan that's under Chinese administration.

I have one question: In some regions of Kashmir, it is completely inaccessable, due to poor transportation systems. Why is this? Is it because of the terrain?


Jay ,
  The real reason is Pakistani economy and that of POK is in ruins.  Pakistan is a banana republic, with no constitution and every ruler siphons off as much as they can from the economy.
-Digs
Back to Top
TeldeInduz View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 07-Mar-2006
Location: Paraguay
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 857
  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 04:14
Originally posted by Digvijay


Some people like you who are politically motivated just never learn. Kashmir is mentioned in Puranas. Does your shimeer nonsense finds mention in any text of anitquity?  No.

Think about it. Do you think that a Purana was written and then they named all the places like Kashmir, or do you think that they named the places first and then wrote the Purana? Bear in mind that a Purana means "ancient history", so all the texts will be documenting supposed historical cosmogonic events from the Hindu viewpoint.


500,000 Kashmir pandits have had to relocate out of Kashmir due to ethnic cleansing by Paki sponsored terrorists. Every CM, wether is Mufti or Ghulam come up with grand plans to have them come back. 

Sure, Pandits have relocated from Kashmir Valley to Jammu. Most of the Kashmir Valley Muslims are killed by the Indian Army, which has resulted in the Muslim percentage in Kashmir slipping by a couple of percent, and the Hindu percentage increasing by a percent since partition.


Oh really. And where do you think Pakistan trains all these terrorists?

From what I know the terrorists are coming up through Jammu and occupying Srinagar. That's why you get the mass protests when their political figures visit.
 
Hizbul Mujahideen is the largest insurgent faction, and this has already been described as composed of Kashmiris only - nothing to do with Pakistan. Plenty of Pakistani groups have been banned from having their base in Pakistan. Hizbul Mujahideen are a legitimate Kashmiri group though, as acknowledged by everyone.
 

Pakistanis love to lie. Let us expose your lies:

A bit like the Colonel Turkey capture by India in Kashmir in an ambush, I suppose.. later retracted it seems..
 
 

Soldiers of Pakistani army on leave, aided by tribesmen of NWFP, led by Pakistani army officers attacked Kashmir on 22 October 1947, along the Jhelum valley road.
 
 
Pakistan Army had nothing to do with the tribals joining forces with the Pooch uprising. This has been stated by Sir George Cunningham, the governor of the NWFP at the time.
 
The British paid attention to the reports of Sir George Cunningham, the Governor of North Western Frontier province, that tribesmen entering the state of Jammu and Kashmir were acting on their own and that the government of Pakistan was unable to prevent their invasion.This, along with the British belief that the atrocities committed by the Hindu Maharaja were the root cause of the Kashmir conflict, generated the Pro-Pakistani stance of the British delegation in the United Nations.   
 
On 22 October, thousands of Pathan tribesmen from Pakistan, recruited by the Poonch rebels, invade Kashmir along with the Poonch rebels, allegedly incensed by the atrocities against fellow Muslims in Poonch and Jammu.
http://www.indiatogether.org/peace/kashmir/intro.htm

According to the findings of Alastair Lamb it seems that a few resistance commanders in Poonch had toyed with the idea of getting assistance from Pathan tribes in the North-West Frontier. Pathans had a reputation for being vicious fighters but not very disciplined, even in their home region. Kashmiri rebels in Pooch, unlike the Pakistani authorities, had not anticipated the level of fierce brutality the Pathan tribes would employ. Lamb points out that as a result of the prospects of Pathan intervention: More experienced Pakistani soldiers and politicians who were aware of what was brewing were seriously alarmed.[12] Unfortunately, however, once contacted for assistance, it was too late to turn them back. Kolodner notes that: the Pathans had mobilized for battle and little could stop them from joining it.[13] Thus, Contrary to the claims of some pro-Indian writers, it seems unlikely that Pakistan was involved in sending the Pathans to Kashmir in order to capture the territory without using the Pakistani army.[14]
 
 
The chief of operations was Major-General Akbar Khan of the Pakistan army using the pseudonym General Tariq. [1]. There objective was to celebrate Id on October 26 at Srinagar, with Jinnah riding in triumph into the capital of Kashmir. The undefended city of Domel was the first to fall. Brigadier Rajendra Singh, Chief of Staff of Kashmir State, organized a force of 150 men at Garhi and checked the advance of Pakistani army. By 26 October Pakistani army had only managed to reach Baramulla instead of Srinagar. Pakistani troops committed horrendous crimes against Hindus and Europeans living in the valley. Robert Trumbull, of New York Times sent this dispatch, published on 10 November:
The city had been stripped of its wealth and young women before the Pakistanis fled in terror, at midnight friday, before the advancing Indian army. Surviving residents estimate that 3000 of there townsmen including four Europeans and a retired British army officer, Colonel Dykes, and his pregnant wife were slain. St Joseph Franciscan Convent and the convent hospital was stormed and four nuns were shot.

And the reference for all this lot is? It is a well known fact that Pakistan did assist the uprising, not with men, but with logistics as the ruler of Kashmir Hari Singh, asked for assistance from the Mahrajah of Patiala (and was provided a Batallion of troops) to put down the insurgency. This is clearly stated

It was between September and early October, 1947, that Maharaja Sir Hari Singh asked the Sikh Maharaja of Patiala state for help in suppressing the Poonch rebellion. He received assistance in the form of a battalion of infantry and a battery of mountain artillery supplied by the Sikh ruler from his State Armed Forces.[11] The government of India subsequently took steps to protect the Maharajas position in power and prepare for a possible military intervention. When the Maharaja began to open discussions with Sheikh Abdullah, the prominent Muslim leader jailed by the Maharajas regime, it became obvious that Jammu and Kashmir was about to accede to India.

It is around this time that Pakistan began to accelerate its support of the indigenous rebellion against the Maharajahs rule. Pakistani army officer Major General Akhbar Khan, who was given responsibility for the operation to support the Kashmiri rebellion, reports in his book Raiders in Kashmir: As open interference or aggression by Pakistan was obviously not desirable it was proposed that our efforts should be concentrated upon strengthening the Kashmiris internally and to prevent arrival of armed civilian or military assistance from India into Kashmir.

However, the resulting Pakistani military assistance cannot be equated with the raiding Pathans who took advantage of the tensions for their own sordid purposes.

 
Pakistani troops were not involved in the advance into Kashmir. It's been stated by the British delegate at the UN who would have been in a good position to know. There was plenty of horror stories during partition in Kashmir, many of them committed by the Dogra Army, and then tribals out to seek revenge - this was all the more relevant because of the partition riots where Muslims were killed. Here's a couple from the Times of London and the Kashmir Times's Hindu editor (an Indian website..)
 
Commenting on the Raja's reign of terror, the Times of London observed.
237,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated, unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border by the force of the Dogra State headed by the Maharaja in person
 
GK Reddy, a Hindu editor of Kashmir Times, said in a statement published in The Daily Gazette, a Hindu paper of Karachi, in its issue of October 28, 1947: "The mad orgy of Dogra violence against unarmed Muslims should put any self-respecting human being to shame. I saw armed bands of ruffians and soldiers shooting down and hacking to pieces helpless Muslim refugees heading towards Pakistan I saw en route State officials freely distributing arms and ammunition among the Dogras From the hotel room where I was detained in Jammu, I counted as many as twenty-six villages burning one night and all through the night rattling fire of automatic weapons could be heard from the surrounding refugee camps."

The communal violence that gripped Jammu was not altogether one-sided. A large number of Hindu and Sikhs too were butchered in some parts of the region, particularly in Rajouri, Mirpur and areas now under Pakistani occupation. But the fact that there was an obvious bid by State forces to patronise the killings and victimisation of Muslims was a more glaring occurrence. Trouble was brewing in Poonch where a popular non-communal agitation was launched after the Maharajas administration took over the erstwhile jagir under its direct control and imposed some taxes. The mishandling of this agitation and use of brutal forces by the Maharajas administration inflamed passions, turning this non-communal struggle into communal strife.

 
 
Pakistan kept insisting that it was not involved but foreign journalists quickly exposed there lie. Alan Moorehead of the Observer (London) reported that recruitment for the invasion had been going on not only in NWFP but all of Pakistan[2]. Trumbull secretly interviewed American mercenary, Russell K. Haight Jr. who fought along with Pakistanis[2].:
Mr Haight also found Pakistan army personnel running the Azad Kashmir radio station, relaying messages through there own Pakistan army receivers, organizing and managing Azad encampments in Pakistan, and supplying uniforms, food, arms and ammunition which, he understood, came from Pakistan army stores through such subterfuges as the 'loss' of ammunition shipments..Mr Haight charaterized the Azad Kashmir provisional government, headed by Sardar Mohammed Ibrahim Khan, as 'Pakistan puppets'. He also deeply implicated Pakistan government officials, notable the Premier of the NWFP.

Evidence emerged from within Pakistan itself, Michael Brecher quotes an appeal made by the Minister of Health for Sind:

to all trained and demobilized soldiers to proceed as volunteers to the Kashmir front.[3].
 
It's well known where the Poonch got their ammunition from, but it wasnt the Pakistani government. It was gotten from the Pathans at the border. There was no reason to get any ammunition from the Pakistani government.
 
Initially, maharaja Hari Singh attempted to argue for an independent status for Jammu and Kashmir. However, events in different parts of Jammu and Kashmir forced him in the direction of accession to India. Demobilised Muslim soldiers returned to Poonch and Mirpur in Jammu and Kashmir to find that the maharaja was refusing to accept them into his army. In the post-war period, the maharaja increased taxes, leading to widespread poverty. This provoked massive protests, particularly in Poonch where, in October 1947, an uprising was led by demobilised soldiers, armed by tribes in the North-West Frontier Province region of Pakistan.

http://kashmir.ahrchk.net/mainfile.php/articles/161/
 
Do you have a reference for what you wrote.
 
British officers and officials working in Pakistan had got wind of the impending invasion some time before it happened. A letter Sir George Cunningham, governor of the NWFP, wrote to General R.M.M Lockhart, Commander-in-Chief of the Indian Army, before the attack ended with the postscript:
Some people up here have been acting very foolishly. You will know what I mean by the time this letter reaches you.

If you read the link above, Sir George Cunnigham states that Pakistan Army were not involved with the tribals.
 
General Frank Messervy, Commander-in-Chief in Pakistan, formally advised Liaqat against such adventurism, and repeated his advice before flying to London on work.

Indian Government launched Operation JAK to defeat the Pakistan army. V.P.Menon wrote:

Never in the history of warfare has there been an operation like the airlift of Indian troops to Srinagar on 27 October and on subsequent days, an operation put through with no previous thought, let alone organized planning, and at such remarkably short notice... In the early hours of morning of 27 October over a hundred civillian aircraft and R.I.A.F (Royal Indian Air Force) planes were mobilised to fly troops, equipment and supplies to Srinagar. The R.I.A.F and civillian pilots and ground crews rose to the occasion and worked heroically to make the airlift a success.

Lord Mountbatten wrote:

in all his war experience he had never heard of an airlift of this nature being put into operation at such a short notice and he complimented all concerned on the astonishing performance.

When Jinnah learnt that Indian troops had reached Srinagar, he ordered Sir Francis Mudie, Governor of Punjab, to phone General Sir Douglas Gracey, acting chief in absence of General Douglas Messervey, to send Pakistan army into Kashmir via the Banihal pass and Rawalpindi Srinagar route. Gracey refused to take orders from Jinnah and told him that he would need orders from Field Marshall Auchinleck, the Supreme Commander. Auchinleck told Jinnah on 28 October that Kashmir was legally part of India and sending the Pakistan army would amount to a formal declaration of war. And if Pakistan went to war, Auchinleck said, he would withdraw every British officer serving in the Pakistan army. Jinnah was stumped[2].

By morning of 8 November Major General Kalwant Singh and Brigadier L.P.Sen had reached Shalteng the stronghold of Pakistani army and showed them what war was all about. Battle lasted eight hours and the Pakistanis were routed. They left 300 dead behind. Soon winter snow helped Pakistanis as Indian army could not advance any further. Next spring and summer Indian army had major successes and Pakistan gave up its pretencce and formally entered war. Major-General K.S.Thimmaya, who succeeded Kalwant Singh, was confident--and he would nurse this complaint all through his life--that he would have taken Muzaffarabad had he not been stopped by the politicians[2].

  1.  Hodson, H.V. (1969). The Great Divide: Britain, India, Pakistan.
  2. Akbar, M.J. (2002). Kashmir Behind the vale.
  3.  Brecher, Michael (1953). The Struggle for Kashmir.

-Digs

 

How very Rajput of you LOL 

What is your reference for all this? Some of it looks made up by you like the Jinnah masterplan of riding into Kashmir. I have found bits of it on a site called "weeklyholiday.net". But it still doesn't say what you have written down. 

http://www.weeklyholiday.net/300503/inret.html

Until 7 November the road from Pakistan to Baramula was used by others who were neither malevolent nor directly involved in the conflict. For example, Sir George Cunningham, the Governor of the North-West Frontier Province, sent on two occasions during this first week of November small convoys of lorries to Baramula from Peshawar with the mission of trying to find out what was happening and, if possible, rescuing any stranded British residents. The Pakistan Army, too, despatched patrols along this route with the same objective (but with great care not to get involved in any conflict with the Indians). A surprising number of individuals, including Sydney Smith of the Daily Express, as we have already seen, were picked up by such Pakistani parties and evacuated by way of Kohala and Abbottabad



Edited by TeldeInduz - 01-Aug-2006 at 05:06
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 89101112>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.