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Super Goat (^_^)
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Topic: stunning speech on how to destroy America Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 00:02 |
Also to mention the decreasing birth rate, in a few decades US might be begging for immigrants
Edited by Super Goat (^_^)
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hugoestr
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 00:10 |
Maju,
Most immigrants learn English and assimilate to the U.S. culture because it is in their best interest. This happened in the past and this still happens today.
Recent immigrants don't speak the language. That makes sense. But many work very hard to learn it. Those who are young are successful; older ones are not as successful. I am sure this has been the case with every wave of immigrants.
The fear that the U.S. is going to lose its dominance is ridiculous. The U.S. culture gives Latin American immigrants a dignity and civic orientation lacking in our home countries. Living in a democratic society where public officials are responsive to our opinions is a cultural artifact that most will not sieze.
Personally, I find that this fear comes from the poor economic outlook of many poor or lower middle class white Americans.
Our politicians could try to do something about our economy, but instead, they just fan the flames of ethnic hatred.
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Illuminati
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 01:05 |
Originally posted by hugoestr
Maju,
Most immigrants learn English and assimilate to the U.S. culture because it is in their best interest. This happened in the past and this still happens today.
Recent immigrants don't speak the language. That makes sense. But many work very hard to learn it. Those who are young are successful; older ones are not as successful. I am sure this has been the case with every wave of immigrants.
The fear that the U.S. is going to lose its dominance is ridiculous. The U.S. culture gives Latin American immigrants a dignity and civic orientation lacking in our home countries. Living in a democratic society where public officials are responsive to our opinions is a cultural artifact that most will not sieze.
Personally, I find that this fear comes from the poor economic outlook of many poor or lower middle class white Americans.
Our politicians could try to do something about our economy, but instead, they just fan the flames of ethnic hatred.
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An Excellent post! Illigal immigration is an economic problem, not a law enforcement one. Now, I am against illegal immigration, and while people are coming across my nation's borders not even two hundred miles from my house, I get a little nervous. Where are all these people oging to stay? Whose paying for their medical care in the event of an emergency? They sure as heck aren't, it's going to end up froming my taxes. Illegal immigration also causes a rise in crime. I don't want to see my city have more gangs of illegals. We already have enough. I've never really been one to worry about the "downgrade" of american culture. I've never seen a threat to out way of life like this article describes. But, some people are, and I think those who are need to look at the illegal immigration issue in a different way. If politicians were to work on economic issues and work with the mexicans to really improve their economy, then there won't continue to be a steady stream of people flowing across the border. They're coming here for work. If they can get work in mexico, then they won't come here. it's really as simple as that. It's in America's national security interests to not have people flooding across the border, and this is the best way to solve that problem. Plus, its also beneficial to Mexico.
Edited by Illuminati
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gcle2003
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 08:17 |
As far as I'm aware, the only country with a serious illegal immigration problem is the US. Other countries don't have one because illegal immigrants are - for the most part - simply sent back where they came from. So questions like whether illegal immigrants should have driving licences or whether their children should attend school simply don't arise.
The reason that the US has the unique problem is that it seems to be only in the US that illegal immigrants can get jobs, and that is because quite large segments of the economy depend on their cheap (and unorganised) labour.
Problems with legal immigrants, where there are any, are a different matter, and probably much the same anywhere.
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Maju
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 09:28 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
As far as I'm aware, the only country with a serious illegal
immigration problem is the US. Other countries don't have one because
illegal immigrants are - for the most part - simply sent back where
they came from. |
Say what?
You don't seem to be living in Europe as your flag says. Here, a
growing proportion of the population is made up of inmigrants, many of
them illegal. They aren't sent back so easily (they may not have papers
or there is no agreement with the country they came from or just laws
protect them too and they are left around... indefinitely).
Occasionally a limited legalization of illegals is made but there's no
coherence nor system for that. Just happens on political caprice.
In some border areas like Ceuta or Canary Islands there are true
concentration camps for them but in the mainland there's nothing like
that, just the normal legal system.
And there are issues like wether illegals can register as residents or
not, things like that. Driving license is less a problem in Europe than
in the USA, as cars aren't that imprescindible and health care usually
is also universal even if you don't have documents.
But more problematic is illegal employement, without any kind of insurances nor workers' rights.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Tobodai
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 13:01 |
Illegal immigration is actually quite a good thing fro America. How much labor, money and whatnot comes to us from illegal immigration? ALot. Its not like this land is ours by right any more than it is theris. Not only was California a former part of Mexico but this is all native American land if you want to look at it by birthright.
WIth an ageing population and a phony service economy incapable of producing anything, plus a government that makes too many requirements for employeers hiring citizens, the only way to circumvent this beauracracy is to bring in lots of illegals. Their costs are well advertized but very rarely are their benefits.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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BMC21113
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 13:27 |
Originally posted by Tobodai
Illegal immigration is actually quite a good thing fro America. How much labor, money and whatnot comes to us from illegal immigration? ALot. Its not like this land is ours by right any more than it is theris. Not only was California a former part of Mexico but this is all native American land if you want to look at it by birthright.
WIth an ageing population and a phony service economy incapable of producing anything, plus a government that makes too many requirements for employeers hiring citizens, the only way to circumvent this beauracracy is to bring in lots of illegals. Their costs are well advertized but very rarely are their benefits.
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As mentioned before, immigration is good, but illegal immigration is a disaster in the USA. The fact is we were born in the country, have our roots sewn in the country, and for those of us who were not born here, we go through the process of legalities. I can not believe that you feel that illegal immigration is a good thing! I understand about the workers, but do you see a danger in five-eight million people scattered through the country that we have absolutely no record of? I understand they are looking for a better life, and that is fine, but they need to go through the procedures.
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"To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington
"The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon
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Tobodai
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 13:31 |
its not agood vs bad thing, its a coast vs benefit ratio. As long as our system remains are bizarre as it is it NEEDS those illegals. Yes it would be better to have them all naturalized properly but first iits the governmetn system that needs to change, not the state of immigration. The problem, like all things, comes from government first, and those to fix it we need to fix the root policies causing it.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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BMC21113
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 13:42 |
I'm sorry, I guess I misunderstood your post..... You are exactly right! The government needs to find a way to solve the problem or it will only get worse!
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"To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington
"The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon
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cg rommel
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 14:59 |
Every great empire has to fall sooner or later, like they all did... so
i dont think the USA wont lose much of its power, maybe not in the near
future, but im usre it will.....
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BMC21113
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 15:03 |
Well, illegal immigration is the number one concern of many Americans. I can tell you that the Reps. and Dems. alike are concerned about this one.... We will find a way to handle the situation. Maybe a guest workers program.........Something practical yet effective.......... not like the guest workers programs that have been suggested!
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"To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington
"The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon
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eaglecap
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 15:16 |
His points were not just about illegal immigration but also the threat of taking multiculturalism to an extreme so as to create, as Michael Savage says, a chamber pot vs. the melting pot. There is the fear of the eventual Balkanization of our nation. It may never happen but it is a possibility and groups like La Raza (The Race) would like to see it happen, but they do not represent the feelings and hopes of most Hispanic immigrants.
I do believe it is important for Americans to be more global and Spanish or French should be taught at a very early age as a second language but English should be pushed as the primary language for the benefit of the immigrants and America. ( so here I do not agree with the governor)
I do not agree with the governor about stopping immigration altogether and besides immigrants will give me job security since I plan to teach English as a second language.
Now that I say that, for Maju, we have the right as a sovereign nation defend our borders and regulate immigration, just like Greece does. I add Greece because it is I have concerns about it as well as America. If you think someone is a fascist for taking this stand, you have that right.
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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flyingzone
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 15:29 |
Just a little off-topic comment on the issue of bi or multi-lingualism. You see, it's only in countries like the United States, Australia, the United Kingdom, and to a certain extent Canada (but at least nominally speaking we have two official languages) that bilingualism or multilingualism is seen as such a big deal. If you look at the rest of the world, multilingualism, not even bilingualism and definitely not unilingualism, is the norm rather than the exception. People, many of whom are illiterate, in India, Africa, and China can easily code-switch from one dialect or language to another without ever whining about it and or even being aware of it. Some can converse fluently up to 7 or 8 languages. It's only in countries like the United States where if an Anglo can say "bonjour!", it's like "Oh, this guy speaks French!" Big deal.
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Cywr
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 18:02 |
hmmm... isn't this "Victimology" as well? |
Yup, my favourite contradiction of the whiny right.
I am not even sure if "multiculturalism" is the official policy of the
United States. It IS that of countries like Canada and Australia, but
as far as I know, the United States favors the "melting pot" approach
to assimilate immigrants. Which approach is better is really open to
debate. |
In practice, many countries have a 'multiculturalism' policy, but go
about it in different ways, it is after all, a vaugly defined ideal,
not a one-size-fits-all road map. I believe the trendy view in the US
at the moment is 'mixed salad', as opposed to the older 'melting pot'.
though really, the focus on one vs the other seems pointless to me, as
inievitably both will happen similtaneously, regardless of policy. Not
to mention both can be subject to a wide range of interpretations.
You see, it's only in countries like the United States, Australia, the
United Kingdom, and to a certain extent Canada (but at least nominally
speaking we have two official languages) that bilingualism or
multilingualism is seen as such a big deal. |
UK is officialy bilingual. Language whiners are really just a minority
of English snobs who regard Wales as a playground, and paranoid Welsh
nationalists, who like to complain about migrants who don't assimilate
and learn the local language, that is to say, English people
Once in a while someone will whine about migrants and language, but
given the demographic trends (the two biggest migrant groups to the UK
at present are educated peeps from EU countries, and Australia/New
Zealand/S. Africa, all of whome speak English anyways, after that are
the other ex-colonials who again tend to speak English for obvious
reasons), is unsubstantiated bollucks.
And btw, India is one of the few countries i can think of that has had
language riots in the past, its stuck with English as a de facto
official language of government, because of the issue of favouritism
when selecting a theoretical local national language. So India isn't
immune to issues arising out of bi/multilingualism either. Likewise
many African countries retain English of French as a defacto national
language for the same reason.
English language socieities do seem more anal than most when dealing
with the existance of foriegn language, as a quick glance of the TV
schedule or the mainstream radio stations will reveal.
From what i've heard, many 'Hispanics' (a huge umbrella term if there
ever was one) are less likely to even speak Spanish, the further
removed they are as a generation from their ancestors who migrated. I
guess things would be a bit different in the Ex-Mexican states though.
Still, seems like a load of hype in part.
If certain Americans are so hung up about large scale Mexican
immigration, why don't they look at some of the root causes that lie on
their side of the border? A reliance on cheap labour for poorly paid
menial tasks because American society doesn't value those jobs or the
people who do them, making them undesirable persuits for Americans.
That said i think the US should review its 'lottery' system of
approving migrants, and take the sane geopgraphical view that most
migrants from the US are going to come from Mexico, and thus allow for
more migrants to come from there legaly so as to have them be
integrated into the legal scheme of things as an equal, and not as
disgrunted, used-as-cheap-labour-with-few-rights, illigals.
Edited by Cywr
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Arrrgh!!"
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Maziar
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 18:06 |
didn't California belonge to Mexico befor?
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Cywr
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 18:23 |
Yes, though i think it was also indipendant for a while.
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Arrrgh!!"
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hugoestr
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 20:33 |
Eaglecap,
I was going to tell you that if you disagree with the extremist xenophobe ex-governor, you shouldn't have published his words. You should have written exactly what you think about immigration yourself.
And frankly, there seems to be a pattern with your posts. First you publish some outrageously extremist point of view, and then you spend the rest of the thread clarifying that you do not agree with the author, while maintaining some points as valid
Some people can identify this as a classic propaganda tactic. Some people may even start suspecting of your motives and good intentions, since no matter how many times we all have asked you to abstain from publishing such extremists views, which you claim not to share, you keep doing it.
But I will not do that. Instead, I want to seek some kind of dialogue with you so that we can find some solution for the illegal immigration problem.
Why don't we read Cwyr excellent point to begin our dialogue:
That said i think the US should review its 'lottery' system of approving migrants, and take the sane geopgraphical view that most migrants from the US are going to come from Mexico, and thus allow for more migrants to come from there legaly so as to have them be integrated into the legal scheme of things as an equal, and not as disgrunted, used-as-cheap-labour-with-few-rights, illigals. |
This is a summary of the situation as it stands, pointing out to a simple solution: let's allow most of these people to immigrate legally to the country, since their labor is obviously needed.
BMC already suggested a guest worker program, which seems very sensible to me. Maybe BMC can outline what an features he would like to see in the program to get his approval.
I find that we can reach a solution that satisfy most of our common goals and values.
What do you think?
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Loknar
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 23:13 |
Here is an interesting thought: we wont know for another 50 years whether this man was right or wrong.
However, lets consider what he says...There are extremist Mexicans in the southern US who advocate a return to Mexico. I have a big problem with people who come here but wont assimilate into our culture.
In the French section of Canada immigrants are forcibly assimilated and I think it should be down here.
Illegal immigration should be stopped. America looses 100,000 jobs each year to Mexico through NAFTA.
In Europe they will be destroyed demographically by Middle Easterners within 50 years. Thats just promising. All because Liberals dont want to say "Hey stay out we want to keep this country the way it has been for 1000 years."
Rome is a unique example...They turned loose their superior culture on their conquered subjects, we dont do that and the Roman Emperors gave orders to their subjects.
I believe this man actually. What will happen when America is %50 Hispanic? I am against that and I think we should start locking up our borders and sending these people back. I'm sick of these people coming here and not wanting to assimilate into Americas culture.
1 language, 1 People, 1 Culture.
"When in Rome, do as the Romans."
Edited by Loknar
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flyingzone
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Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 23:43 |
Originally posted by Loknar
In the French section of Canada immigrants are forcibly assimilated and I think it should be down here.
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What the hell are you talking about???? Please don't talk about things that you know nothing about. I live in the so-called "French section of Canada" (I bet you didn't even know this "French section of Canada" is called Quebec) and I didn't know forced assimilation of immigrants are taking place here ... You make Quebec sound like some kind of fascist state. If you want to make your arguments sound more "credible", at least dream up a country that no one knows about instead of fabricating lies about places where real people live.
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Loknar
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Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 00:21 |
Originally posted by flyingzone
[QUOTE=Loknar]
In the French section of Canada immigrants are forcibly assimilated and I think it should be down here.
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What the hell are you talking about???? Please don't talk about things that you know nothing about. I live in the so-called "French section of Canada" (I bet you didn't even know this "French section of Canada" is called Quebec) and I didn't know forced assimilation of immigrants are taking place here ... You make Quebec sound like some kind of fascist state. If you want to make your arguments sound more "credible", at least dream up a country that no one knows about instead of fabricating lies about places where real people live.
[quote]
Arent people required to learn French in Quebec?
Immigrants only have access to French speaking schools. Perhaps it isnt forces assimilation but still, its a good thing.
The same should happen here. People should be forcibly assimilated if they dont do so voluntarily.
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