Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Turkic tribes in Western Gokturk khaganat

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkic tribes in Western Gokturk khaganat
    Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 15:45
Which Turkic tribe was the rulling tribe of western Gokturk khaganate?
And what other turkic tribes were incorporeted in western Gokturk khaganate?
Back to Top
Imperator Invictus View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3151
  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 22:14
I think the ruling tribe of the W. Kaghanate was the same family as the original, the Ashina. But I'm not sure.

There were probabaly a ton of tribes. Some of the more important ones were probably the Karluqs, Turgish, Tiele, Bulgars, and Khazars.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 03:41

That's hardly true.Gokturks' father was Huns.Huns' father was Ashinas.

Avars(Juan Juans),Huns and Trgishes were incorporeted Gokturks.I know as these

Back to Top
tadamson View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 25-Jul-2005
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 451
  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 05:27
The Turks as a group/tribe etc  appeared as a result of their revolt from the Ruruan empire (Juan Juan in WG, ruled by an Eastern group from Manchuria), tradition states that they were iron miners.

They were amongst the first steppe people to leave us written records and allow us to determine their language was a Turkish one.  The bulk of the Ruruan population were the exsisting Xiongnu tribes (primaraly a mix of Turkish and Iranian speaking groups) - I try to avoid calling them Huns as Western readers then fixate on the Western Huns who were probably related to them.

They appear to be descendants of the Tujue  and most Turkish historians accept  Li Yanshou's theory that the ancestors of the Turks were the mixed Ashina Hu nomads in Pingzhou and Liangzhou areas.

The Turks became a strong power after they, under Tumen, defeated the 'Tiele Tribe' and absorbed about 50,000 households in AD 546.

nb The Avars were a group of refugees, probably including Ruruan and Hephalite remnants, and not part of the Khaganate.  Khazars were even later.
rgds.

      Tom..
Back to Top
Imperator Invictus View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3151
  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 10:38
That's hardly true.Gokturks' father was Huns.Huns' father was Ashinas.


I don't think the Ashina clan can be traced back to the Xiong Nu Era. Also, it isn't conclusive on how the Xiong Nu and Gokturks were related.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 10:48
Ashine tribe is,father of all Turkic Tribes
Back to Top
Imperator Invictus View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3151
  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 10:56
There were many clans besides the Ashina. Saying that they were the "father" of all Turkic Tribes is like saying that Julius Caesar's family was the father of all Romans, which is not true.

The Ashina cannot be traced back earlier than the Juan Juan Era, which was 400 years after the flourshing of the Xiong Nu.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 11:59

Of course,if we go more back,we can see Proto Turks.But I didnt mean "Ashinas are first Turks".I meant all the Turkic tribes' father is Ashina.Of course there are grandfathers 

 

Back to Top
Turkoglu View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jan-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 176
  Quote Turkoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 13:29

The Gokturks, who originated from the Ashina (Asena) tribe who were natives of todays Uygurs (lace>Xinjiang, Chinalace> as known as lace>Eastern Turkistanlace>)


By the way, the first Turks was The Saka s B.C. 700
they were living in Tiyashan.
Of course they were Turks before the Saka s but we don't have any information about them.







Back to Top
Imperator Invictus View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3151
  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 13:45
No, the Saka were not Turkic. They were an I-E group.


Edited by Imperator Invictus
Back to Top
Turkoglu View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jan-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 176
  Quote Turkoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 13:57
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus

No, the Saka were not Turkic. They were an I-E group.



Modern Kazakhs (especially the branch known as "Saks") claim descent from the Sakas. The Sakha people of Siberia (Yakuts) also claim descent from a remnent of the earlier Saka people. Additionally, although the evidence is dated and the technology utilized still in its infancy, DNA analysis conducted at the Novosibirsk Institute of Cytology and Genetics has found vKazakhs and Altai people to be the nearest relatives.

but probably you are right, i dont claim

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 11:38

Originally posted by Imperator Invictus

No, the Saka were not Turkic. They were an I-E group.

Saka(Iskit) is the first Turkic tribe.We don't have enough information about them but we know their region was the same as old Turks' (SkyGod).Also,Alper Tunga's epic is Sakas'.

Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 11:58

The Saka nomadic life was different to that of the later Turks. Turks were not known for their tattoos and body decoration, metal (gold) working skills, nor their use of wagons. And it is known that the Parsa, Mada and Parta tribes came to the region of Western Iran from the same area as the Sakas, it is pretty much attested by Assyrian and Elamite records.

Another point is that the area the Saka occupied when they defeated Cyrus was in Afghanistan, an area successively home to the Sogdo Bactrian Kingdoms which definately spoke an IE (Iranian) language.  There was no mention of Turks anywhere until much later till right before the Gok Turuks took over. 

Originally posted by tadamson

The Turks as a group/tribe etc  appeared as a result of their revolt from the Ruruan empire (Juan Juan in WG, ruled by an Eastern group from Manchuria), tradition states that they were iron miners.

They were amongst the first steppe people to leave us written records and allow us to determine their language was a Turkish one.  The bulk of the Ruruan population were the exsisting Xiongnu tribes (primaraly a mix of Turkish and Iranian speaking groups) - I try to avoid calling them Huns as Western readers then fixate on the Western Huns who were probably related to them.

They appear to be descendants of the Tujue  and most Turkish historians accept  Li Yanshou's theory that the ancestors of the Turks were the mixed Ashina Hu nomads in Pingzhou and Liangzhou areas.

The Turks became a strong power after they, under Tumen, defeated the 'Tiele Tribe' and absorbed about 50,000 households in AD 546.

nb The Avars were a group of refugees, probably including Ruruan and Hephalite remnants, and not part of the Khaganate.  Khazars were even later.

Interesting info, thanks.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2006 at 08:14

Their language wasnt Iranian.There were only some similarities.And also,they had wars versus Persians,Kimmers and Medds.

I didnt say "Shaka" is a normal Turkic tribe.Im saying that Shaka was first Turkic tribe.First... Before Gokturks

Shakas are coming from Turkistan.Were there any Iranian in Turkistan?



Edited by Alone_Wolf
Back to Top
DayI View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2408
  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2006 at 08:25

Yes they where and also its "Saka" or "Saha" not shaka

Am i correct zagros, cyrus?

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2006 at 08:35

For real,It's "Iskit".Heredot says that they were naming themselves as "Iskit".

"Saka" is in Turkish,"Shaka" is English as I know.Because in all of English documants I red,writing "Shaka"

Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2006 at 10:16

There were seven Saka tribes.

I am sick of debating what language they spoke.  This is my final opinion, I believe Turkic origins to be what Tadamson described, I think they came as a wave from the East in early AD and gradually took over.

Back to Top
Imperator Invictus View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3151
  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2006 at 15:34
It is widely believed that the Saka were an Iranian group, not Turkic.

Unless you're showing evidence, I think you're just trolling now.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.205 seconds.