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Chinses empire in Han , Tang and Ming

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  Quote Jiangji Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Chinses empire in Han , Tang and Ming
    Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 19:55

Originally posted by honeybee

I believe Qing is superior to the Ming, its 3 times larger.

Larger doesn't mean greater or superior.

One bad thing about the Qing dynasty is that they follow the old too closely, disregarding the criticsms of thinkers like Huang Tsung hsi and Ku Yen Wu. They avoided major institutional reforms particular with regard to fiscal practices. No other major dynasty in chinese history had introduced fewer organizational changes.

 I say Ming and Han are both barbarous, their cruel punishments and totalitarian regime is very oppressive.

Any evidence? I do know a lot about Qing dynasty

1. In terms of killing of Han people during their invasion of China, the manchu 'equal' that of the Mongols.

2. Men was forced to shaved the top of their head bald and had pigtails. It destroy more than 1000 years of Han tradition.

3. Under Ming code, Slaves was treated as the same category as the a free right person.

 

Today, there are 57 ethnic groups, and only the PRC greatly praise the Qing, the other Chinese are too blinded by ethnicity to understan

No, there is a great amount of innovation, reform and technological progress in every major dynasties except Qing.

When Qing conquer China, they copy the entire administration structure and fiscal practice from Ming dynasty with little changes. Under them, technological  stagnant and falling behind European power. After the opium wars, China enter the "Century of humiliation" being bully by almost every Western powers, Japan and Russia.



Edited by Jiangji
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 20:02
Originally posted by tommy

The silk road had not been closed in The Ming dynasty too.The misssionary Bento de Goes had reachd the northwest China from Lahore Silk Road during the late Ming period. May be Ottoman Turks blocked this road to the Western road. But not China closed it.


I have only read a few books about Chinese history so I am not familar with this period in China but anything about the silk route to Rome or even trade with ancient Greece with be fascinating but from the looks of the posts this would have been in a much earlier period. If I choose to teach English in Taiwan I will study Chinese history, culture and attempt to learn the language but the offer in italy sounds better to me for now.
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  Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 15:32
Originally posted by Tobodai

Really the Ming?  They may have had big ships but they were one the smallest and weakest dynasties.  Im intrested in hearing why you think they are so imperialistic. 

Certainly Tang is an empire of sorts, but that doesnt mean people X or Y are imperialistic or not.  Imperialism has nothing to do with culture or whatever, it has to do with power. 

 

I agree with you if imperialism can be defined as the policy of expansion of power. But, attempt to expand or expansion of influence would also be imperialist. Then, Ming may also be "imperialist" because it actively sought to expand its sphere of influence in Manchuria, Yuannan and some part of Tibet.    

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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 07:42
[QUOTE=honeybee]

("Can we say that Han and Tang  and Ming were the age of imperalism and colonialism of China?

I believe Qing is superior to the Ming, its 3 times larger.")

Even though you believe that the Qing is much more superior than the Ming just because they occupy a massive land, but i can tell you one thing that you dont even know about how they manage to occupy that massive land of the southern part of China. The Qing managed to bribe Wu San Gui (Ming general defected to the Qing) to betray the Ming empire by opening the San hai pass (san hai guan) and also leading the invasion against Ming rebellion (Li Zhi Chen). After the invasion Wu San Gui was order to invade the southern part of China mostly of those Ming loyalist left behind who havn't been defected to the Qing.

Now hopefully this could help you understand a little bit more about the brief historic event instead of just saying that the Qing was superior just because they were three times bigger.

 

("I say Qing was barbarious,it is because I based on the long term historical development to make such conclusion.

I say Ming and Han are both barbarous, their cruel punishments and totalitarian regime is very oppressive. ")

I say all dynasty would have such harsh punishment and NOT! just the dynasties that was under Han civilisation control would be that harsh. So what are you having something against the Han tribe or what? Maybe you dont even know something about how Qing had also act as such in a barbarious way. Make use of all possible resources from the net rather than just saying that the Ming and Han was acting barbarously.

 

("Qing rulers never reallt consider themselves as realChinese, always feared that Han would revolt against them."

That happened in every dynasty, fear of rebellion from pheasants, Qing is no exception, I don't see any element of Nonchineseness behind, why does everyone always conribute Qing policy as different because of their ethnicity, a close examination of history shows that its not the case at all, Qing is fully integrated and perhaps the most "Chinese" of any dynasty.")

As for this part i have to agree with you, because Qing dynasty in my point of view would be the first foreign dynasty was that able to cooperate with other ethnic background well, although there might be a slight racial problem at the begining of Qing empire.

 

("For example, in late Ming period, Chinese soldiers used firearms, but Qing feared that Firearms would be taken by Han, so they drove out firearms from army, this was the example."

Absolute nonsense. Qing used a variety of firearms. In KangXi's northern campain he used 300 matchlock units and hundreds of cannons.")

I must say that Qing disregarded the development of firearm weapons i'd say, because we pretty much know that there had been variety of domestic development of firearms during Ming dynasty and less development from the Qing dynasty.

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  Quote Qin Dynasty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 09:19

I must say that Qing disregarded the development of firearm weapons i'd say, because we pretty much know that there had been variety of domestic development of firearms during Ming dynasty and less development from the Qing dynasty.

 

The Qing court deliberately and systematically hindered the development of the firearms. One issue they concerned was to ensure their superiority  over the rebels. Strict rules were made to ban the firearms owned by folks. In the other hand, with huge troops stationed and solid control over its territory, they have no momentum to further upgrade their arsenals, especially after they stroke back the Russians' incursion in Siberia. Just check the WUSONG fort in Shanghai, all of the cannons there were made in Ming dynasty. No a slight improvement was made in the following three hundred years. The fort was totally destoried by the British during the 1840 opium war.

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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 13:07
Originally posted by tommy

Can we say that Han and Tang  and Ming were the age of imperalism and colonialism of China?


I would say the most colonialistic and imperialistic age were the Qing and the People's Republic of China. The Qing because they conquered in classical colonial wars  Taiwan, East Turkestan and Tibet and the PRC because they uphold their claim on these territories.
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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 23:51
Imperialism/colonialism isn't possible during the Han/Tang/Ming/Qing, because that would mean that these dynasties would try and drain resources from the border to the heartland. Seriously, these dynasties don't have the economic knowledge to come up with that. If anything, resources GO to the borderlands rather than the other way around, mostly used to act as a buffer against foreign encroachments. As for the PRC, during the early days Communism didn't allow imperialism/colonialism, mostly due to that it requires money for something like that to happen, and communists hate money in the first place. As for modern China, it's pretty given knowledge by now that it's much more profitable for everybody to treat every region the same as the other region, so no, it's not imperialist, maybe a conqueror instead. But then again, let's get serious people, what idiot would go and give their territory away for nothing? Technically everybody's a conqueror. 

Edited by Omnipotence - 02-Sep-2006 at 23:53
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 09:32
Originally posted by Omnipotence

Imperialism/colonialism isn't possible during the Han/Tang/Ming/Qing, because that would mean that these dynasties would try and drain resources from the border to the heartland. Seriously, these dynasties don't have the economic knowledge to come up with that.


I would most definitely say that from the very beginning of history men and empires knew how to draw resources away from the defeated, conquered and occupied...

And that resources also go from the centre to the periphery is no argument, becaue that also had happened with the European colonies. Last year, I was in Cambodia and the railways at Battambang, the seond biggest city, were still from the French era. But who would say that this technology transfer sufficiently justified French colonialism?

Only because the Chinese, like the Russians, colonized not overseas, does not mean that theirs was not a colonial empire. In fact, it still is and the last one on earth.
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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 14:51
^. In imperialism, one has to use the concept of dollar diplomacy in the colonized areas, for that is the definition of imperialism itself. Made In Beijing or Made in whatever products have to go "into" the borderlands and the only objective of the borderland is to buy these products. Such a concept is not capable of existing in the past, and such a concept is not in practice nowadays. You need to provide proof that such a concept is happening now, or your case is mute.
 
If one equates imperialism to merely owning land that at some point in time wasn't there's, then I'm sorry, 99% of the earth was conquered from somebody, so everybody's an imperialist in that sense. Imperialism has to do with the economic style of conquest. Nowadays conquered lands such as Tibet(if you can even call it that, some say it's a civil war) has the main economic purpose of being a tourist attraction. That is not how imperialism works.


Edited by Omnipotence - 03-Sep-2006 at 14:57
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 15:16
Originally posted by Omnipotence

In imperialism, one has to use the concept of dollar diplomacy in the colonized areas, for that is the definition of imperialism itself. Made In Beijing or Made in whatever products have to go "into" the borderlands and the only objective of the borderland is to buy these products. ...Imperialism has to do with the economic style of conquest.


Where have you got that definition from? One widely accepted definition of colonialism is when the centre forces the periphery, the colony, to provide raw materials in exchange for manufactured products, thus reducing the colony to the status of a mere supplier of one or very few goods, with all the social implications. The workers are the indigenous people, the administrators, lawyers, doctors, and policemen from the occupants.

And this is exactly the case in the resource rich East Turkestan and the strategically important Tibet now.

Apart from the fact, that the Chinese systematically colonize these lands with their people, trying to press the Tibetans and Uighurs into a minority status in their own lands.

Apart from the fact, that the Chinese make A-bomb test in their colonies...

Originally posted by Omnipotence


 Nowadays conquered lands such as Tibet(if you can even call it that, some say it's a civil war) has the main economic purpose of being a tourist attraction. That is not how imperialism works.


Since when is oppressing people, destroying Buddhist temples, and forbidding to show a picture of the Dalai Lama a tourist attrcation? 

For Han nationalistic tourists maybe...


Edited by Gun Powder Ma - 03-Sep-2006 at 15:20
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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 15:35

Where have you got that definition from? One widely accepted definition of colonialism is when the centre forces the periphery, the colony, to provide raw materials in exchange for manufactured products, thus reducing the colony to the status of a mere supplier of one or very few goods, with all the social implications. The workers are the indigenous people, the administrators, lawyers, doctors, and policemen from the occupants.

And this is exactly the case in the resource rich East Turkestan and the strategically important Tibet now.

Apart from the fact, that the Chinese systematically colonize these lands with their people, trying to press the Tibetans and Uighurs into a minority status in their own lands.

Apart from the fact, that the Chinese make A-bomb test in their colonies...

That's your definition of imperialism? Chinese immigrating is imperialism? No, it is not. And still you have not provided any proof that Tibet provides only natural resources and its objective is to buy only manufactured products from China. Where did you get that from? The Chinese HAD made A-bomb tests in their peripherial territories, but that is at locations where there isn't any resources and people. According to that US is a colonizer too. Now no one makes A-bomb tests.

Since when is oppressing people, destroying Buddhist temples, and forbidding to show a picture of the Dalai Lama a tourist attrcation? 

For Han nationalistic tourists maybe...

That was during the communist era, in which China at the most can only be half imperialistic at most due to that the economic requirements of imperialism is not met. Since when did Buddhist temples get destroyed today? If anything, they are preserving/rebuilding them. And oppress? Seriously, minorities have much more rights than the majority in China, considering that so many Han is looking back to their family roots just so they can attain minority status.Tibet is a major tourist sight in China, like it or not. There are plenty of places to visit, and people both foreigners and from other parts of China visit it every yr. I really don't see signs such as "no dogs and Indians allowed" in Tibet as I do see in the colonies of previous imperialistic countries. It is merely inefficient to run a country. As for natural resources, Tibet's main one is wind and hydroelectric energy. Tibet gets it, refines it, and sells it. China does not manufacture energy into other products, obviously, unless you are talking about using those energy to make other products from other resources.

 
Tibet also export trinkets such as wristwatches, as well as carpets, food(rice), cooking oil, etc... which is not the basic resources as required by imperialist attitude.
 

 


Edited by Omnipotence - 03-Sep-2006 at 15:48
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 16:02
Originally posted by Omnipotence

That's your definition of imperialism?


That is one possible definition, following the classical economical model by Hobson (1902). There are more around which place greater emphasis on cultural domination and assimilation all of which apply to a large extent also to Han Chinese colonialism.

I said Tibet is primarily kept for strategical reasons,  irrational Chinese claims of Tibet being China or Tibetans being Chinese aside.

And the Chinese assimilation policy by systematically trying to settle Han Chinese shows a particularly ugly face.


Originally posted by Omnipotence


I really don't see signs such as "no dogs and Indians allowed" in Tibet as I do see in the colonies of previous imperialistic countries.

Be careful what you say here. This sign has been proven a myth and its proponent happens to be a certain Bruce Lee:

http://pekingduck.org/archives/002542.php

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20050618_1.htm




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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 17:11
^Seriously man, the above have absolutely nothing to do with what I have said. "no dogs and Indians allowed" is not the same thing as "no dogs and Chinese allowed". One would obviously happen in India, and the other, if it did happen, would obviously happen in China or some Chinese populated place. Heck, China wasn't even properly colonized, so why are you arguing something like that? Maybe a "no dogs and Tibetans" allowed sign would do your case some good, but this doesn't.
 
And if Chinese(correction, Han Chinese, since Tibetans are officially Chinese too, which works contrary to some imperialistic practices) "immigrating" to Tibet is imperialism, than everybody's an imperialist, once again, for everybody came out of Africa(except the southern africans). Seriously, the attitude that "oh no, they are messing up the purity of our blood"(as if everybody else is some sort of locust!) is inefficient and if anything, racist in itself. Who cares what type of ethnicity one has. Such a statement should only be important in the detective field and all that. Disagree? Than get the hell out of where ever you are, pack your bags, and move back to Africa. Han Chinese immigration to Tibet as of now is due to trade and the chance of a better life. The latter didn't happen for most immigrants due to that of the Tibetan climate, so most moved somewhere else. Thus, most Han Chinese "immigrants" are small time businessman and tourists anyways, while those who govern Tibet is not picked by ethnicity(actually it is, by Tibetan ethnicity), but by ability and loyalty to the CCP, obviously.
 
If you are talking efficiency, one shouldn't merely look at the ethnicity or national background(both of which shouldn't even be counted since Tibetans are no longer a nationality but a ethnicity, and a Chinese one, since China owns it), but at his or her ability and loyalty. Osama Bin Ladin has a pretty high ability, but I wouldn't want him to be the governor of an American State! Why? Well, obviously his loyalty isn't to the best interest of the US.
 
If you are talking about the moral sense, then one should judge by his or her compassion(at the risk of me sounding like a total hippie), which still do not equate with ethinicity. Just because you are related to Genghis Khan doesn't make you yourself a murderer.


Edited by Omnipotence - 03-Sep-2006 at 18:18
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