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Chinses empire in Han , Tang and Ming

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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Chinses empire in Han , Tang and Ming
    Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 16:02
Can we say that Han and Tang  and Ming were the age of imperalism and colonialism of China?At these thereperiod, Chinses soldiers attacked the barbarians from all fronts.In Han, China  extended the Northern, western, southern, and even eastern territories, the Chinese empire was doubled.Same story occured in Tang. In Miing Dynasty,Chinese army took back the losting territories of the Tang dynasty, they even conquered the Manchurian area,and even the outer Mongolian area(although not last for very longtime). Chinese even set up settlement and base in Malacca.Who say Chinese people love peace?Chinses also liked to conquer other people.And in these three periods, I think Ming dynasty was the most imperalists one.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 04:38

Really the Ming?  They may have had big ships but they were one the smallest and weakest dynasties.  Im intrested in hearing why you think they are so imperialistic. 

Certainly Tang is an empire of sorts, but that doesnt mean people X or Y are imperialistic or not.  Imperialism has nothing to do with culture or whatever, it has to do with power.  Think of former colonies had anticolonial ideologies and were many of them ended up.  Venice, Carthage, America, these went from colonized to colonizer.

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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 18:48
Why do i think that Ming was the imperalist period, Of course, as you say, from the power, not the culture,althoght culture was good too.Of cousr in the late Ming dynasty, The country was weak, Mongolians and manchus invaded.But inthe late Han and tang dynasty, and every other dynasty,this happened.In the late Han dynasty,Hun,tibet people also invaded too. In late Tang dynasty,Tibet people,Turks.Uighurs also invaded too. But during the strongest time time of Ming dynasty, it was definately stronger that Han and tang .For example. during the strongest og Tang dynasty,they never control the Tibet ,Manchuria region,and Yunam region of the south. Tang army even could not control the steppe and the western region very well.You can check the history book.I am telling the truth.Not to say their  records of oversea exploration. But in the strongest time of Ming,they could  control the tibet ,Manchuria and Yunam.The dynasty still control T and y when she collasped.And during the whole period of the dynasty, western region didi not create much troubles.Every dynasty faced military setbacks when it was collasping.even the Roman Empire,The Ming dynasty was not  the exception. But the scholars always exaggerate the military setbacks of Ming, and do not praise it military success.it is because Chinsese scholars disliked this dynasty. Why, many Ming emperors(including those who had a good records on foreign expansion)diid not respect and even kill many good officiers and scholars.So you may have such impression.
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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 20:06
The Ming was strong, but for the most part, compared to what was going on with the rest of the world, it was a step back from former dynasties. While the Europeans were sailing around the world and building a global economy, the Ming canceled its naval expeditions and shut off the silk road.

The Tang and Han era were known for their expansionism and economic outreach, especially the Silk Road. Even during the Song Dynasty, when northern China was overrun, the Empire was very active in maritime trade. Yet in the Ming era, China did not have the global economic influence it once had. The markets in Asia were being continually extracted from by the Portugese and Dutch. In short, the Ming became very isolationist.

However, the Ming were far from a "small" Empire, even compared to the Han and Tang.
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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 22:03
Ming was not the leader of the global economic and commercial activities, this was true .But atleast she wasstill the player.There was interaction between the Ming and the European's New world adventure.Ming still traded with Portugese and Dutch through Macau.China got the gold and silver of Mexicio through the Spanish philippines.The trading activities of Macau and the gold and silver of Mexicospeed up the develiopment of China economin and commercial activites , at least in the southern China.Capitalism began to emerge. Commercial cities appeared.The sign of modernization began to take place. Only barbarious Qing destoryed this and isolated China in order to maintain their rule
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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 22:25
The silk road had not been closed in The Ming dynasty too.The misssionary Bento de Goes had reachd the northwest China from Lahore Silk Road during the late Ming period. May be Ottoman Turks blocked this road to the Western road. But not China closed it.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 01:58
It is true that the biggest beneficiary of the conquest of the New World was China, in financial terms.  It is figured that more than half of the silver in the potosi mountain (a huge supply) was spent by the SPanish of Chinese goods.
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 14:44

Because of its "non-Han" nature and its final disastrous and humiliating demise, the Qing Dynasty has always been overlooked by Chinese scholars or lay people as a great imperial period in Chinese history. The truth is, the beginning years of the Qing Dynasty under Emperors Yongzheng and Qianlong were relatively prosperous compared with the previous Ming Dynasty. Both Yongzheng and Qianlong were actually very respectful of the Han culture. Militarily, the Qing emperors acquired more or less (actually quite considerably more) all the territory claimed by today's China. Territorially speaking, the Chinese Empire under the Qing was larger than even the Han and Tang Empires. (The Ming Empire was actually not that big.) If one does not count the Yuan Empire, then the Qing Empire is actually the largest empire in Chinese history. It controlled lands in Central and Northeast Asia that are no longer modern China's (both are now Russian). And of course back then Outer Mongolia was also part of the Qing Empire.

 

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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 22:17
The Qing isn't overlooked at all. It's most notable for producing the best two emperors in Chinese history, KangXi and QianLong, who ruled through China's most economically profitable times. People on average became even richer than those of the Song.
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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 18:20
I say Qing was barbarious,it is because I based on the long term historical development to make such conclusion.Qing rulers never reallt consider themselves as realChinese, always feared that Han would revolt against them.They could not carry out modernization without any fear, they always believethat fully modernization would endanger their rule, let the han became powerful,so Japan could achieve modernization, but not China.For example, in late Ming period, Chinese soldiers used firearms, but Qing feared that Firearms would be taken by Han, so they drove out firearms from army, this was the example. Even in the early Qing, The emperors locked the nation since they feared that western influences would damage their rule,I think that Late Ming had a better sign of modernization than Qing. Today we Chines believed in Republic among the five ethnic group,so we always over prasie the Qing and overlook the achievement of the late Ming period. 
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  Quote Conan the destroyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 18:48

Early Ming China defated the eastern and western Mongols in several expeditions. Conquered Yunnan and northern Vietnam. Sent massive fleets halfway across the world, and built gigantic wonders such as the great wall and the forbidden city. A golden age for China, if you ask me.

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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 18:52
Actually, the Ming is more to blame for isolationism.  The Qing simply inherited the isolationist policies that were adopted by the Ming starting from the mid 15th century.  Institutionally, the Ming and Qing were similiar, and the Qing simply copied Ming policies almost to the letter.  As to firearms, the Qing did use firearms, at least cannons.  For example, Empreor Kangxi commissioned Dutch engineers to build many cannons - generalissmos - along the Yangtze River garrisons.  The Ming's use of firearms is overexaggerated; the Qing used as much firearms as did the Ming.  Take a look at one of the paintings of Emperor Qianglong examining his troops, and one will see the use of firearms by the Qing army.
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 18:57
Originally posted by Conan the destroyer

Early Ming China defated the eastern and western Mongols in several expeditions. Conquered Yunnan and northern Vietnam. Sent massive fleets halfway across the world, and built gigantic wonders such as the great wall and the forbidden city. A golden age for China, if you ask me.

A. The Yongle expeditions to Mongolia were successful, but not decisive, and depleted the imperial treasury

B. Annam rebelled constantly against Ming rule, and Empreror Xuande was forced to abandon the province in 1427

C. ZhengHe's expeditions into the Western Seas did not reap long term benefits for Ming China, and were an economic burden to the state

D. The Great Wall violated Sun Tzu's Art of War and failed to protect the Ming from Mongol and Manchu incursions time and time again

E.  The Forbidden City, well, at least it helps to bring tourists to Beijing and contributes to China's GDP

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 02:19
I quite like the early Qing dynasty and Qianglong in particular is one of my favourite Chinese rulers. The Ming and Qing were both rather isolationist, but for different reasons. For the Ming, the previous Mongol invasion had led them to pursue a policy of distrusting and excluding outsiders after the first successful foreign occupation of China. For the Qing, a Manchu dynasty, the need to appear as "Chinese" as possible to their Han subjects led them towards extreme conservatism which included unpragmatic attitudes towards the growing European powers.
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  Quote Conan the destroyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 15:59
Originally posted by poirot

Originally posted by Conan the destroyer

Early Ming China defated the eastern and western Mongols in several expeditions. Conquered Yunnan and northern Vietnam. Sent massive fleets halfway across the world, and built gigantic wonders such as the great wall and the forbidden city. A golden age for China, if you ask me.

A. The Yongle expeditions to Mongolia were successful, but not decisive, and depleted the imperial treasury

B. Annam rebelled constantly against Ming rule, and Empreror Xuande was forced to abandon the province in 1427

C. ZhengHe's expeditions into the Western Seas did not reap long term benefits for Ming China, and were an economic burden to the state

D. The Great Wall violated Sun Tzu's Art of War and failed to protect the Ming from Mongol and Manchu incursions time and time again

E.  The Forbidden City, well, at least it helps to bring tourists to Beijing and contributes to China's GDP

 

A. The same could be argued for the campaigns of every Chinese dynasty aside from the Qing.

B. But the speed with which the Ming conquered Annam shows the military might of the dynasty in it's earlier stages.

C. Irrelevant. The size of the fleet, with the most advanced weaponry in the world, is still amazing.

D. It also protected the Ming from Mongol and Manchu invasions time and time again. Remember, Kangxi said if you only follow the military classics "you will never win a single battle"

E. Are you arguing that all architectural wonders within Chinese borders should never have been built?

The fact remains, Ming China in it's early stages was the most advanced and powerful country in the world.

 

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  Quote Genghis_Kan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 17:45

Originally posted by tommy

The Ming dynasty was not  the exception. But the scholars always exaggerate the military setbacks of Ming, and do not praise it military success.it is because Chinsese scholars disliked this dynasty. Why, many Ming emperors(including those who had a good records on foreign expansion)diid not respect and even kill many good officiers and scholars.So you may have such impression.

Na actually because most of the Chinese History is written by the next dynasty. Eg Han write the history of Qin. So of course u would praise the previous dynasty after u beaten them

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  Quote Jiangji Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 17:15

To says Ming Empire as imperalists is misleading. It will depend on a Emperor rather than Empire itself. The Ming third Emperor, Yongle is a very aggressive person who would expand the Ming Empire to its greatest extent. However, his descendents are not as aggressive as him and never expand the empire. Xuande Emperor even abandon everything outside of Great wall leaving the Empire vulnerable for mongol raids later. Xuande Emperor also plan to withdrawn its forces in Vietnam.

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  Quote Jiangji Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 17:26

The Early Ming Military was the strongest in the world and far more powerful than the Song dynasty and comparable to Tang. The Ming military system is much better compared to the Tang and Song military system. Hong Wu, founder of the dynasty realized the problem of the "warlord state" faces by the Tang dynasty implement a wei-so system which limit the powers of the Ming generals.

However, everything changes after the Ming army defeat at Battle of tumu. The Battle of tumu destroys almost one third of Ming total army. These one third army was the Ming most experiences and well trained one. According to professor Albert Chan, the Ming army never recover its full strenght even several times being reformed by capable generals. However, it should be noted that the Ming remain one the most powerful Empire.



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  Quote Jiangji Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 17:28

Originally posted by tommy

Ming was not the leader of the global economic and commercial activities, this was true .But atleast she wasstill the player.There was interaction between the Ming and the European's New world adventure.Ming still traded with Portugese and Dutch through Macau.China got the gold and silver of Mexicio through the Spanish philippines.The trading activities of Macau and the gold and silver of Mexicospeed up the develiopment of China economin and commercial activites , at least in the southern China.Capitalism began to emerge. Commercial cities appeared.The sign of modernization began to take place. Only barbarious Qing destoryed this and isolated China in order to maintain their rule

 

Again to say Ming Empire isolate itself after the dismantlement of Zheng He fleet and trade ban is hugely misleading. Hong Wu trade ban has no effect on the commence. On the contrary, commence was in much greater scale compare to the previous centuries. The only effect of the trade ban was it fails to tax the menchants which could improve government financial situation. Low taxes is reason why many turn to trade because it is profitable.

Trade boom happen in the ming Empire in the mid-sixteenth century lead to its as global economic leaders. The Ming officially lifted the trade ban in 1560's. For example, most of the Spain silver from America go to the Empire.

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  Quote honeybee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 10:21

"Can we say that Han and Tang  and Ming were the age of imperalism and colonialism of China?"

I believe Qing is superior to the Ming, its 3 times larger.

 

"I say Qing was barbarious,it is because I based on the long term historical development to make such conclusion."

I say Ming and Han are both barbarous, their cruel punishments and totalitarian regime is very oppressive.

 

"Qing rulers never reallt consider themselves as realChinese, always feared that Han would revolt against them."

That happened in every dynasty, fear of rebellion from pheasants, Qing is no exception, I don't see any element of Nonchineseness behind, why does everyone always conribute Qing policy as different because of their ethnicity, a close examination of history shows that its not the case at all, Qing is fully integrated and perhaps the most "Chinese" of any dynasty.

 

"They could not carry out modernization without any fear, they always believethat fully modernization would endanger their rule, let the han became powerful,so Japan could achieve modernization, but not China."

You think any other dynasty would be different?

 

"For example, in late Ming period, Chinese soldiers used firearms, but Qing feared that Firearms would be taken by Han, so they drove out firearms from army, this was the example."

Absolute nonsense. Qing used a variety of firearms. In KangXi's northern campain he used 300 matchlock units and hundreds of cannons.

 

 

"Today we Chines believed in Republic among the five ethnic group,so we always over prasie the Qing and overlook the achievement of the late Ming period. "

 

Today, there are 57 ethnic groups, and only the PRC greatly praise the Qing, the other Chinese are too blinded by ethnicity to understand.

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