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Mila
Tsar
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Topic: Alija Izetbegovic Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 01:25 |
Nah, still sadness I think. I remember the footage of refugees
returning from Turkey in 1996 - and even with Sarajevo burried in
Bosnian flags and the city free from the siege, they still were
devastated.
There was a documentary by a Norwiegan filmmaker and he followed a
Bosnian Serb family returning to Sarajevo from Belgrade after the war.
They were on the bus and once they got close enough in the finished
film he stopped narrating and just had subtitles of what was being
said. And the mother of the family saw the city and kept saying, "Heart
of Jesus, heart of Jesus, oh my God, oh my God, heart of Jesus, heart
of Jesus..." and crying. And he just kept that footage unedited for at
least 10 minutes. At the end she stopped saying heart of jesus and
started saying oh my city, oh my city, oh my city, oh my city -
completely hysterical.
It felt like 10 years just watching it.
There was a photography book by Roger Richards...or Richard Rogers, I
can't remember - called Impressions and it was photographs of refugees
taking a walk downtown for the first time on their return.
He divided them not my people, but by reaction. It was really nice. So
the first one was five people, five different pictures, with their
hands over their mouths and watering eyes. Then different progressions
for the following sets, and the last ones were four or five different
people kneeling in the middle of the sidewalk and crying. One Catholic
woman had her hands over her face but from cry-praying, not just crying
- she had those beads in her hands. And there was an old guy who prayed
the Muslim way, with his head down, etc.
Really good piece of history recorded by these things. This was still
back when the refugees were hated for having left at all, and welcomed
back the same way you'd welcome a traitor.
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Bosniathebestcountry
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Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 01:05 |
LoL, yeah but in that case youd probably cry in happiness, not sadness. Samcan people are so pissed off and sad most dont even want to visit, its too painful. Walking around dowtown and you see a bunch of villagers? mostly serbian village people that were located around samac before.
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Mila
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Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 00:23 |
Thats common for everyone. Even if the city still had much of its
pre-war population and had been significantly rebuilt, you'd still cry
to see it for the first time since the war.
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Bosniathebestcountry
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Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 00:02 |
I never heard of any bosnians ever (except the controversial hanjar division from WWII) destroying serbs or serbian property or hating on orthodox religion. Its all propagandanized B.S.
The serbs are and always will be the ones blamed for the '92 war. there is no excuse for it. and whats worse...that war accomplished absoloutley nothing, in fact it messed things up much worse.
Alija Izetbegovic....many bosnians like him but many dont cuz they thought he was "too soft" and a coward and he never shouldve signed the Dayton contract because the bosnian army at the end stretch had a very big chance at winning the war because they started forcing the serbs out slowly.
In my opinion, he seemed like a good person who only wanted peace. A good president?....i dont know.
You know, btw... i'm also from Bosanski Samac. I left it when i was 4 because of the war of course. I got a chance to visit it one time right before i came to the states and i bathed in the magnificent river Sava. It used to be a beautiful, peaceful little city and now..... an empty depressing place, with like 8 bosnian-serbs and 2 bosnian-muslims living in it and its belonging to "srpska republica". Every ex-samcanin (no matter what ethnic background) that sees samac now cries when they visit it.
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Jay.
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Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 20:44 |
Yugo, I shall punch the moniter with you.
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YuGo
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Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 19:10 |
@ Alija Izetbegovic,
I don't have much of an opinon of him, Mila. He is just anouther war criminal to me. Saying anything more than that, and I will be considered a Serb nationalist by Bosniaks, and attacked by all of your Turkish, and Soudi Arabian friends!
EDIT:
I will say, I was ready to punch my monitor when I first saw that video, I was so angry. Seeing that Islamic flag over the map of Bosnia Herzegovina, and destroying the Serbian Orthodox Church, and the fact that most of them still live in Bih today just infuriates me!
@ RS Prestident,
I supose that is good news? Anything that gets RS closer to unification with the Federation is good news to me!
Why is he a Cetnik to you, by the way? lol, I don't know much about this man.
Edited by YuGo
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erci
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Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 00:05 |
Originally posted by merced12
he is hero
rahat uyu bilge kral |
Last I heard these words was in the Conan comics in Turkish.Nice words nevertheless...
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Mila
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Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 00:04 |
By the way, YuGo...
I'll mention this here because it's not worth a new thread and I know you'll check back.
Dodik is new Prime Minister of the Republika Srpska and, although he is
severely denying it in the news now, he allegedly said his goal was to
be the last Republika Srpska Prime Minister.
I don't like him - he's still a Cetnik, but he's about as good as they
come. He accept the Republika Srpska in 1992 but he was still opposed
to Karadzic. He's bumped the nationalists from power twice now...
He cooperated fully with the Hague last time and he'll certainly do that again.
So we'll see. Could be good news who knows.
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Mila
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Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 23:50 |
You can attack him all you want to - and if you do so with anything
worth mentioning (like a video of him meeting with mujahedeen) all the
better.
Well, my opinion is this...
Alija Izetbegovic said, while he regrets bringing Arab fighters to
Bosnia (mainly for the public relations problems this caused), in the
same circumstances he would do the same thing again because we were
desperate and needed all the help we could get.
In the area between Zenica and Tuzla, where most of the mujahedeen
operated, they most certainly made a difference in the defense of the
Bosniak population. That doesn't mean we shouldn't hold them and
ourselves responsible for any crimes that were committed against other
ethnic groups.
As for Izetbegovic... he must certainly have at least heard reports of
crimes being committed by the mujahedeen (Bosniak soliders as well, of
course, but I'll stick with the mujahedeen for now). Whether or not he
believed they were true can be debated. There were constant reports of
massacres of Serbs by Muslims coming from the Serb side. "Serbs are
being fed to lions in Sarajevo", "Serbs must ride the yellow trams",
"Trebinje has been destroyed, thousands dead", etc, etc, etc. It's
possible Izetbegovic heard of these crimes and thought they were simply
more of these morale-boosting stories designed to push the Serbian
soldiers.
Where I can't really dismiss Izetbegovic's involvement is when you
realize he met with this mujahedeen, as your video shows. These
fighters didn't put on a show for Izetbegovic, that would be foolish to
even imagine. If they discussed policy, if they discussed their
actions... and common sense dictates they did... then Izetbegovic must
have known their methods and what they planned to do to ethnic Serbian
soliders, and probably civilians as well.
Either way, if he was alive he would have to answer for their crimes.
Incompetence is not an excuse for war crimes and if they were committed
under his watch, as they certainly were, then he should have some
responsibility in that. I'd like to think he'd have taken it, but who
knows.
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YuGo
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Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 19:37 |
This is no way, is trying to attack Alija Izetbegovic.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,91134-bosnia _p3705,00.html
I found this video, it is a small documentry about radical islamists in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It also shows Alija Izetbegovic meeting with radical islamic soldiors. It's worth a watch! I don't know where else to put it, and since it shows a clip of Alija, I supose this is the best place.
What are your opinions about this video?
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Mila
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Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 18:52 |
I saw something on the news that Turkey named a mosque for him in the Little Bosnia district of Baliksehir.
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DayI
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Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 18:49 |
Alija Izzetbegovic, great man may he R I P.
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Mila
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Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 18:14 |
Well the evidence will be sketchy at best, Malizai. It's not as though
he shot anyone, and in his public speeches he always expressed the need
for tolerance and urged all Bosnians to come together.
Now, does that mean he didn't tell his military commanders to kill
every Serb they laid eyes on, of course not. I don't believe that
happened but he was in charge and under his watch things most certainly
did happen to Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs. In the wider context of
the war... am I going to lose sleep over it? Probably not... but I
don't think it should go unknown either.
Whatever happened has to be brought to the surface and justice has to
be served. If not, you will have people on one side saying - as they do
- that not a single Bosniak solider committed a single crime during the
war. You'll also have people on the other side saying - as they do -
that thousands of Serbs were fed to lions in Sarajevo for public
amusement.
Have the truth of whatever crimes were committed by Bosniaks recorded
should be as important for every Bosniak, nationalist or not, as it is
to every Bosnian Croat and Bosnian Serb.
And all of that is just politics, saving face, etc, etc, etc.
What it really comes down to is someone's mother, someone's son,
someone's husband - and there are family members who deserve the know
the truth and have anyone responsible punished. That has to overshadow
all the politics but I just try to explain, even politically - it's
very important.
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malizai_
Sultan
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Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 17:23 |
When the conflict first started i wanted to learn more about this politician who was stuck been a rock and a hard place. I did a search at the Town library and found a book written by him.
Having read the book I realised that he was more of an intellectual than a politician, it also led me to conclude at that time that as long as he is around the Bosnians may get something out of the conflict.
His single most achievement was to keep the defined boundaries of bosnia as they were b4 the start of the conflict. I think the bosniaks owe him a debt of gratitude.
I do not know of war crimes sanctioned by him, and therefore can not comment. But would like to see some independent evidence if it exists.
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Cunctator
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Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 21:10 |
I don't think that there is any need to compare Izetbegovic to Milosevic to argue that the former warranted being investigated, and probably should have been indicted, for war crimes.
Although Serb nationalists have put out a lot of material on Izetbegovic, not all of what they provide is incorrect. His connection to the SS Handzhar division during WW2 is cited in many places, although he was not directly involved in the massacres of Serbs that that organisation committed. He was a recruiter. Interestingly, his bodyguard during the Bosnian War was called Handzhar.
His connections to extremist Muslim groups is also true. He was a personal acquaintance of the chief ideologist in the Islamist regime in Sudan -- that connection is probably the way that Bin Laden's followers were able to enter Bosnia. (Unconfirmed stories are all over that Bin Laden travelled to Sarajevo at least once, perhaps more often, to meet Izetbegovic.) And Izetbegovic did protect the mujahideen fighters when the US and others demanded that they leave, as stipulated in the Dayton Peace Accord.
I always found it interesting that whenever there were stories in the media of a sealed indictment for Izetbegovic, he suddenly had to travel, including to Saudi Arabia for health reasons.
In the Bosnian war, none of the main characters were pure of heart. The Serbs were never very clever about manipulating international public opinion, while the Bosnians hired Rudder-Finn out of New York. That company fashioned an image, that has lasted to this day, that the Bosniaks were a nation of victims led by a kindly old grandfather like figure. The war was far more complicated.
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ill_teknique
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Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 09:02 |
Originally posted by YuGo
If the crimes were small, or large the world should
still know about the crimes he commited, if he is to be commited guilty
for war crimes. Not saying he will, but if he does...
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People try to compare all sides to milosevic in order to aleviate from the fact that he initiated the war.
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YuGo
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 21:13 |
If the crimes were small, or large the world should still know about the crimes he commited, if he is to be commited guilty for war crimes. Not saying he will, but if he does...
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ill_teknique
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 21:09 |
Originally posted by Jay.
Alija did commit war crimes, though... |
I'm not a fan of his but no matter what you will have to admitt that it was nothing on the scope of karadzic and milosevic.
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Jay.
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 17:56 |
Alija did commit war crimes, though...
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Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
Only Unity Can Save the Serb
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merced12
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 17:25 |
he is hero
rahat uyu bilge kral
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http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``
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