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ancient greek/ modern greek

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vespasian View Drop Down
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  Quote vespasian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: ancient greek/ modern greek
    Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 17:59
I saw this mentioned briefly in another thread, but I would like to go into this a little more. I was wondering just how much has Greek changed from classical times to modern times?
For example, if one knew ancient Greek, could they get by in modern Athens? Just curious. Thanks.
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  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 20:06

Originally posted by vespasian

I saw this mentioned briefly in another thread, but I would like to go into this a little more. I was wondering just how much has Greek changed from classical times to modern times?
For example, if one knew ancient Greek, could they get by in modern Athens? Just curious. Thanks.

I would say greek language had many phases starting even before classical times until modern times. But despite this greek has a continuity which can be said  its kind of rare in the history of linguistics. It starts with Mycenean (even if someone could argue with proto-greek) and it continues with ancient greek dialects during classical period. When Athens is being established as the political anc cultural center of the Greek world, Attic is being used as a common language in most of Greece. Later Attic is being the basis of a common language (Koine) used throughout Greece and conquered territories. The next phase is the Byzantine Greek (or Medieval) and we are having the last phases of Modern Greek language from Kathareousa to Demotike which is the one used at this time talking.

Now as far as your question, personally i have estimated in a random ancient greek text i used once as an experiment, i can understand fully around 75% of it, i can guess its meaning from other 15% and i need a vocabulary of ancient greek for the rest of 10%. But this applies only to me. Others may find it more difficult or easier to read ancient greek text depending on their knowledge.

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  Quote The_Last_Byzantine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 06:41

Here is a comparison in alphabet and pronunciation between the ancient variants and the modern ones:

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  Quote The_Last_Byzantine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 06:48
Probably all of you know that at the very beginning ancient greeks wrote right -to-left .Later the direction of writing started changing every line.They called this kind of writing "bustrofedon" which means  "ox turning"  since this type of writing was similar to the way they cultivated the land.The biggest difference between ancient and modern greek is that ancient greek was a highly synthetic language whereas the modern greek is becoming more and more analytic.But this is a normal  phenomenon for almost all languages.

Edited by The_Last_Byzantine
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 06:52
Concerning the words,are pretty much the same with modern ones,but sometimes with a very different meaning.For example the word (pragma) among the other meanings,it also had the meaning of money in ancient Hellenic,and in Modern it has only the meaning of a thing.Another example of the unique relationship between Ancient and Modern Hellenic is that,from 4.900 words of the New Testament(written in Ancient Hellenic) almost half of them ,approximetally 2.280 words, are also used today,2.220 are being understood by those who know Modern Hellenic and only 400 are totally foreing to them.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 19:49

The ancient Hellenic language until 300 B.C. was a mosaic of dialects. Attica, Ionian, Northwestern, Aeolians e.t.c. and of course their subgroups.

 

The first dialect began to distinguish from 5 B.C.  and had reached in her climax in the Hellenestic period. Attica or Koine  dominated the production of literature for the entire Byzantine era from the establishment of Constantinople in 330 until 1453 when the city was defeated by the Turks.

 

The development of actual daily speech during this period is extraordinarily difficult to reconstruct since the vernacular speech was deemed unfit for literary production.

 

After the 18th cent the difference between ancient and modern (katharevousa and demotike)  are only in the grammar(not to much). Words and syntaxis are the same.

 

Katharevousa is a form of the Greek language, created during the early 19th century by Adamantios Korais (1748-1833). A graduate of the university of Montpellier in 1788, Korais spent most of his life as an expatriate in Paris. Being a classical scholar, he was repelled by the Byzantine influence in Greek society and was a fierce critic of the ignorance of the clergy and their subservience to the Ottoman Empire. He realized that education was a precursor to Greek liberation.

The "purified" Greek was to be the midpoint between Ancient Greek and Modern Greek. Katharevousa actually contained archaicised forms of modern words, purged of "non-Greek" vocabulary from other European languages and Turkish and a (simplified) archaic grammar.

Dhimotiki, is the daily language. Dhimotiki was made the official language in 1976 and by the end of the 20th century Katharevousa had become obsolete. However, the ancient Greek grammar and syntactical rules that Katharevousa had adopted and many words from Katharevousa have influenced and entered Dhimotiki during the two centuries of its existence, so that the project has left a very noticeable trace in the modern Greek language, especially the written form

 

 

Cambringe University will be publish a book that mention a lot for the ancient  and has also some data for the diffrences between them. I have the Greek edition and is very intresting and very informative work.

 

 

http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=052 1833078#contributors

 



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  Quote Alkiviades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 02:34

Doesn't it annoy the people here of Greek ancestry, that the "reconstructed" ancient Greek (as accepted today by western academia) is hardly sounding the way Greek sounds from 3rd century AD (when we have the first relevant treatises and enough data to accept a definite pronounciation guide) but is actually a mixture of Latin (=d, =g, =b) and German (umlauts etc) pronounciation?

 By that reconstruction - that, IMNSHO, just widens the rift between reality and myth that was opened with the "Erasmian" pronounciation - attic Greek sounds rather like... Chinese German () that anything else! I find it ludicrous, to say the least...



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 05:44
Of course it's annoying and it's a matter that needs to be solved,because it gives the sence to the Greeks that they speak the wrong way.That is due to the high esteem of "western" contribution at the revival of the greek civilization.

I guess that the data come from the "christian orthodox" pronountiation,or is it something else?   
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  Quote Alkiviades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 06:53

Originally posted by Agis

Of course it's annoying and it's a matter that needs to be solved,because it gives the sence to the Greeks that they speak the wrong way.That is due to the high esteem of "western" contribution at the revival of the greek civilization.

I guess that the data come from the "christian orthodox" pronountiation,or is it something else?   

I am not quite sure on what you ask... if you mean the data on how Koene Greek was pronounced, we know of it from many sources, including also christian manuscripts and relevant documents.

The western "reconstruction" of the pronounciation of the attic dialect and the very early Koene (3rd - 1st century BC) seem to be a result of an extensive effort, but are fundamentally wrong, because they suppose that the Greek language was a totaly different animal than it actualy was. And I find it extremely racist as well, because it aids further to the notion that the Greeks under Roman conquest became decadent and "lost" their classical virtues and greatness - as they "lost" the "correct" way to spell Greek.

Of course those scholars do not take into account overwhelming data that points out otherwise, and just give more and more credit to this linguistic myth

Oh, whatever...

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