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Temujin
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Sirdar Bahadur
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Topic: What if Alexander the great invades China Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 11:53 |
this is no different than the Rome vs Han thread. closed.
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coolstorm
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Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 07:40 |
"The same army which was destroyed by the 'barbaric' armies of the north centuries later? "
The barbaric force that conquered China was the Mongols, and it happened some 1500 years after the Qin. What does that have to do with anything? The Mongol also obtained firepower, cannons, and fire armed when capturing Northern China. They then applied this technology to its westward expansion, which went all the way to Europe.
"I've read Sun Zu (well parts of it..it was extremely obvious and dry), and if that's what you mean by strategy of war, "
Sun Zhi once stated "anyone could read the war manual but not everyone can get anything out of it. The knowledge behind the manual has to be interpreted by one that's talented about it. The war manual is not a dead thing to read but an area that one needs to explore." All Chinese generals read the war manual but not everyone was good at using it. But Sun Zhi, Ng Zhi Sui, Zhu Gor Lian are all some examples of famous tacticians. Pschological warfare was common in China during that time while it was unheard in the west in the same time frame.
"An army of that size presents numerous problems. The logistical problems of fielding an army of that size in any one location is impossible, even for the Qin. I also doubt that that army has been worked on by historians of today - you probably took that from a source, which most probably inflated the numbers. In any case, the Qin would have probably only been able to field an army of 200,000 or 300,000 (using those numbers) against Alexander, and Alexander had a history of defeating enemies of that size - with considerable ease."
The Qin deployed an amry of 500,000 when conquering the state of Zhao. And, the feudal states frequently defeated a large army of 300,000+ throughout the history of spring and autumn and warring state. The Qin also executed an entire Zhao army of 400,000 after the Zhao army surrendered.
"On top of that, Han success in Vietnam and the Korean peninsula, as well as against the tribes of the Steppes, was very limited, and many times did poorly - and I doubt the Qin's were much better than the Hans."
Who said they did poorly? Han was the most powerful empire on earth of the time. It also defeated the Huns in the north. The Turks in the west. The Muslim region of north western China today was first conquered by the Han in Ancient time. And the rest of the west (central asia), Korea, Japan sent tributes to the Emperor in return of military protection.
"Most likely Alexander would have been able to ally, or at least guarantee the neutrality, of the other six Chinese factions, which would have only added pressure on the Qin's borders, forcing them to keep men on guard on those frontiers, severely limiting the amount of men he could have switched to fight against Alexander. "
What makes you think the Chinese would ally with the Aliens they considered as being inferior and barbaric? The Chinese feudal states, although constantly fought against each other, did ally from times to times to launch campaign against barbaric tribes such as the Xiongnu (huns) in the north.
"In short, I would foresee a Macedonian victory."
A combined force of all the rest of the known world would not be able to defeat a combined forced of all the seven feudal chou states at the time due to tenhnological inferiority and lack of productivitiy. The Qin soldiers used steel weapons while Alexandar's soldiers used iron weapons. The Qin soldiers used crossbows while Alexandar's soldiers used archies. The Qin soldiers had sophisticated seige weapons that've been modified several times throughout the history of Spring and Autumn and Waring States while Alexandar came up with some seige weapons designed by himself.
Besides, there was no large-scale contact between Chin and India due to the terrain and mountains that seperated them. The first contact was made during the Han dynasty. Buddhism didn't spread to China until the age of division, some 700 years after the Qin. The Indian version of warfare was completely different from China's.
Edited by coolstorm
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J.M.Finegold
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Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 23:29 |
Do not compare the state of Qin to the "inferior and barbaric" Persia
known in China. Alexander did not invent military tactics. The Chinese
had their own versions of military tactics far more sophisticated and
advanced than Alexandar's especailly after a thousand years of conflict
and war between different feudal states. Wu Ji Sui's Wu army defeated
Chu's army of 300,000 with a force of 100,000 is one of the thousand
examples of winning a battle that ur outnumbered. China, by that time,
already had different versions of war manuals and tactics developed and
put in books as records and reference. |
The same army which was destroyed by the 'barbaric' armies of the north centuries later?
Alexander had a history of 'inventing' his own siege weapons as his
engineers saw fit. For example, during his siege of Gaza, his
siege towers could not reach the top of the walls, so he ordered a
mound to be built so that the walls would in fact 'shrink'.
An army of that size presents numerous problems. The logistical
problems of fielding an army of that size in any one location is
impossible, even for the Qin. I also doubt that that army has
been worked on by historians of today - you probably took that from a
source, which most probably inflated the numbers. In any case,
the Qin would have probably only been able to field an army of 200,000
or 300,000 (using those numbers) against Alexander, and Alexander had a
history of defeating enemies of that size - with considerable ease.
Alexander equipped the infantry in the world, and this is according to
the most reknown historians of classical warfare, for example, Robin
Lane Fox. His cavalry could barely be matched, and had his troops
not mutinied he could have fielded an army of some 200,000 to 300,000
men - made up of Indians, Persians and fellow Greeks and
Macedonians.
Not only that, but Alexander had a history of improvising tactics on
the spot, for armies that no Greek had ever chronicled before.
Much of Chinese technology of the era had been leaked to India, and
Alexander had defeated that at Jhellum, with considerable ease.
So, do not underestimate Alexander's skill at war. I've read Sun
Zu (well parts of it..it was extremely obvious and dry), and if that's
what you mean by strategy of war, it's a poor excuse as such - I've
also studies Japanese fuedal strategies, and those must be very close
to Chinese strategies of before, and head on head with Alexander I
doubt they would have come out victorious. On top of that, Han
success in Vietnam and the Korean peninsula, as well as against the
tribes of the Steppes, was very limited, and many times did poorly -
and I doubt the Qin's were much better than the Hans.
I'm in no way saying that the Chinese had no martial skill, I only
doubt their effectiveness agaisnt a man like Alexander - thought by
most as the most gifted military commander to have been born on this
green Earth.
The politics behind it would have further dug a grave for the
Qins. Most likely Alexander would have been able to ally, or at
least guarantee the neutrality, of the other six Chinese factions,
which would have only added pressure on the Qin's borders, forcing them
to keep men on guard on those frontiers, severely limiting the amount
of men he could have switched to fight against Alexander.
In short, I would foresee a Macedonian victory.
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coolstorm
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Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 23:02 |
"Alexander...only using numbers? May I remind you that his (circa) 35,000 men defeated a Persian force of about 50,000 at Granicus, then about 150,000 at Issus, a similar force at Gaugamela, then, with about 50,000 men he defeated a similar force at Jhellum (Hysdaspe).
I doubt that any Chinese general could match Alexander for military genius - as no general, until those who used the tactics which Alexander inveted, could improvise as quickly, and as effectively as him."
Do not compare the state of Qin to the "inferior and barbaric" Persia known in China. Alexander did not invent military tactics. The Chinese had their own versions of military tactics far more sophisticated and advanced than Alexandar's especailly after a thousand years of conflict and war between different feudal states. Wu Ji Sui's Wu army defeated Chu's army of 300,000 with a force of 100,000 is one of the thousand examples of winning a battle that ur outnumbered. China, by that time, already had different versions of war manuals and tactics developed and put in books as records and reference.
China also had superior military technology such as the seige weapons (i.e. cross bows) while Alexandar, on the other hand, only had arches, infantry, and calvary.
In terms of military tactic,s the chinese were definitely more advanced.
For example, there were tactics of beauty, pyschological warfare etc that the west had not heard of.
Sun Bing, Sun Zhi, Wu Zhi Sui were all military and tactics experts better than Alexandar. Ancient Chinese military not only relied on tactics during battle but also strategy and psychology. Along with Chinese's superior technology. Alexandar was no match against China. The Qin state by that time already had steel technology that could produce long and steel swords and weapons. Alexandar's force used short iron swords that were not match against the Chinese steels.
The Qin state could easily defeat a combined force of Alexandar and the Persian military. And, that's only one of the seven major states of China. The State of Chu, Chi, and Chin were all so powerful that each of them could deploy an army of 300,000 plus and other smaller states could deploy an army of 100,000.
The Chinese was technological superior, they outnumber the Greeks and the Persians, they had sophisticated war manuals and military formation as well as structure, they were experts in military strategy not limited to tacts during battles.
on the other hand, the West (including Alexandar and Persia) mainly focused on the tactics during battles and had inferior technology.
How could they win?
The Qin state had a standing army of 700,000 while conquering other six kingdoms.
Edited by coolstorm
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J.M.Finegold
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Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 22:54 |
Alexander...only using numbers? May I remind you that his (circa)
35,000 men defeated a Persian force of about 50,000 at Granicus, then
about 150,000 at Issus, a similar force at Gaugamela, then, with about
50,000 men he defeated a similar force at Jhellum (Hysdaspe).
I doubt that any Chinese general could match Alexander for military
genius - as no general, until those who used the tactics which
Alexander inveted, could improvise as quickly, and as effectively as
him.
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 22:40 |
I think that the Qin will kick Alex's ass since the Chinese had gotten at least two thousand years of military history at the time of the Spring and Autumn period there are like over a thousand military tactics and Alexander only depends on numbers and formation he won't matched
If Alexander use 300,000 troops the Qin can wipe it out with 50,000
Remember Qin Shi Huang Di was one of the most brilliant military leader in history and the Qin got a good economy
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warhead
General
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Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 10:37 |
"Warhead, what is the date of Sun Bing's manual please? "
It would be sometimes around 340 b.c.
"Which states practiced it?"
There is no evidence, miliatry tactic isn't the work of one man, Sun Bing's manual is just a generalization of the tactics back then, Sun Bing didn't invent them, it was already invented and Sun Bing is the one tha tpracticed it. Of course, individual has their own experience, and so do other generals.
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 03:43 |
Alexander had already been defeated... by the mali tribes of central UP.
How typical of western historians to forget that their "greatest" military leader got his ass kicked by a bunch of brown prople.
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cattus
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
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Posted: 14-Oct-2004 at 13:00 |
Warhead, what is the date of Sun Bing's manual please?
Which states practiced it?
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sephodwyrm
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Posted: 13-Oct-2004 at 19:05 |
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=477
A translated documentary about the bronze weapons used by the Qin army.
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"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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sephodwyrm
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Posted: 13-Oct-2004 at 19:02 |
One seems to forget that in the Qin army, officers are promoted based on merit. In Alex's army, his officers are composed of the nobilities.
For a nation that has the slogan "Shang Shou Gong Zhi Guo" that glorifies warfare, that lives for war, that would rather use more bronze in weapon manufacture than to create pieces of art, Alex is not fighting against some soft Chinese state. He is fighting against a monstrosity in the history of China.
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"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 23:03 |
Ok, well i guess i assumed that since we were having a discussion about who would win, that Alexander's force would prove more than just a "little raid". But if you're right about them being repelled that easily then there would be no need for the other states to get involved.
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warhead
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Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 20:29 |
"Also, what were the Qin's realationships with the kingdoms, would they all have joined to fight off Alexander, or would they have waited until the fighting was over and then attacked whoever had won?"
I don't know why you're assuming the otherstates would even be involved, the little army that Alexander brings from such a distance if even able to reach Qin, would have been so weakened that it would merely be treated as a little raid, 10,000 Qin troops which is but a small fraction of the border troops would have been enough to repel the exhausted, disadvantage terrained Alexander.
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TMPikachu
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Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 16:11 |
I was thinking more in 'fantasy battle' terms. No mutiny or stretched supply lines, just a big arena of combat, like a videogame. Not arena like one stage, but like a big open place for them to go at each other.
My bet's on the Qin
Maybe someone should play 'Age of Empires' and just let us know.
Edited by TMPikachu
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Evildoer
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Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 07:44 |
I think we are assuming that he went back to one of his cities to re-supply and re-equip, then set upon his conquest of China.
If he did push on, mutiny would have been invitable.
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YusakuJon3
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Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 07:32 |
A lot of good points well made, but I'd also like to point
out that, realistically, the Macedonian army was already at the point
of exhaustion by the time they had reached India. They rebelled
when Alexander urged them to join him in an expedition to reach the
river Ganges, and was just after a hard-fought campaign against the
armies of Poros and Taxilla. Reports of the number of elephants
used by native Indian armies in the interior didn't help matters,
either.
Assuming that Alexander was
able to push his men to the borders of Qin China through whatever
routes were possible at the time, I'd think that the mutiny that was
put off would've been much stronger. Especially once the men
started feeling the sting from Chinese counterattacks.
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"There you go again!"
-- President Ronald W. Reagan (directed towards reporters at a White House press conference, mid-1980s)
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 01:38 |
Alexander may be very educated and able in politic, but the Qin state was not a fool either. What make you think that the Qin will ally with Alexander to attack other six states, after all other six states were Chinese while Alex was foreigner(barbarian).
Qin will never acknowledge the supremacy of Alexander, infact if Alex invade he will suffered disastrous defeat because as friend Warhead pointed out that Macedonian army was not superior to the armies of Central Plains and Alex was far away from home while Qin will be fighting on their own soil.
Last thing is that Qin armies were not rabbles or angry mobs, infact most were professional and battle hardened veterans. Qin people also glorify warfare and strength in arms and Qin state also had some most fearsome generals in history.
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TMPikachu
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Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 12:53 |
I figure the other kingdoms would just let Qin fight off the 'barbarians' by themselves, then take advantage of a weakened Qin army.
That's entirely speculation though. I just figure that these kingdoms did not feel a sense of ethnic unity to band against Alexander just because he looks different. Maybe a sense of cultural unity, but they were still competing with one another for dominance.
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 22:35 |
about the steel used in swords, i remember reading that Hannibal's troops had much stronger and sharper swords than the romans because of a carbon coating that was formed when they were forged. Maybe this is kinda like what the Chinese had.
Also, what were the Qin's realationships with the kingdoms, would they all have joined to fight off Alexander, or would they have waited until the fighting was over and then attacked whoever had won?
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Evildoer
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 22:30 |
Persians also considered Greeks barabarians but they didn't make great attempts to overthrow them... at least not to my knowledge.
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