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Topic ClosedAbout Genghis as Chinese hero

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Sirdar Bahadur

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: About Genghis as Chinese hero
    Posted: 04-Oct-2004 at 18:34

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli

IMO Ghengis is neither a Chines nor a Mongol hero. Not because of his nationality, but because a mass murderer is no hero.

 

that's a wrong approach, it's like viewing Eisenhower just as a general and not as a president. and in fact a lot of stuff about Chinggis Qaan was made up by contemporary historians and western historians that didn't even knew the difference betwen Attila, Chinggis and Timur-i Lenk. in fact, recent research has shown that Charlemagne was in fact more of a barbarian mass-murder than most of the three beforementioned men because the Clerical elite of Europe washed his shirt white after he accepted to become Empeor of the HRE by the hands of the pope and didn't mentionen much of the genocides comitted on Saxons and especially Avars, yet today France and Germany donate a Karls-medal to people that did much for a united europe (Clinton got one)....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 13:35
No, Genghis murdered and thats a fact, its not merely in European sources but by various sources of the central plains as well, one example is his massacre of the capital of Jin, the other is his issue to terminate the xi xia population.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2004 at 13:36
No, he murdered, and thats a fact, its not merely in European sources, its in both islamic and east asian sources as well. One example is his decision to exterminate the population of xi xia, the other is his massacre of the Jin capital. And thats not including the various other central asian cities he massacred.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 17:16
Indeed. It is impossible to deny the fact that Genghis Khan was a mass-murderer.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 05:32
IN those times mass-murder was part of warfare. It was very effective at discouraging fortified towns.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 19:43

Originally posted by warhead

No, Genghis murdered and thats a fact, its not merely in European sources but by various sources of the central plains as well, one example is his massacre of the capital of Jin, the other is his issue to terminate the xi xia population.
So what? He didn't kill because of ethnicity, creed, religion, he killed only those that opposed him. Mass killings, yes, but on his terms they 'deserved it'. Those slaughtered cities had the chance to surrender. Maybe not all of them, but from what I know, most.
You are judging him by modern standards.

Churchhill was racist against blacks. Racists cant be heroes, so Churchill is nothing but a petty racist war monger.



Edited by TMPikachu
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 22:14
I agree with Pikachu. We can't judge the past with the mentality of the present...
"I adore in all things the will of God in my regard" -- Saint John Baptist De la Salle (final words)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2004 at 23:58
One thing is true though, Genghis or CK set the trend for eventual order in a totally chaotic disorderly system, where perpetual warfare was fought with impunity among :
a. Jin
b. Song
c. Xixia
d. Nanchao
e. Turfan
f. Karakitai
If you count the no. of people killed and maimed by these
senseless wars among a-f, they far exceed the nos. killed
when Genghis came into the picture.
The order in northern asia, eventually led to it's integration with central asia, the middle east and europe,
and finally china south of the yangze.
Thanks to Yeliu Chu Tsai, who was most instrumental in
convincing CK that the empire cannot be administered on horseback, this eventually led to the unification of what we know today as China.
My wife and I just enjoyed a TV broadcast of Miss International in Beijing, the candidate from Outer Mongolia looks like any woman from China today, thanks to
Genghis, Ogodai, Mengge , and last but not least Kublai.

If you are to map a DNA map of China, more than 90% would have CK's DNA.

r's
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2004 at 10:43

Clive, you're a sorry a-s apologetic. It was Kubilai who did all those things not Ck. Yelui Chutsai gave advice to Ogodei not CK. The people who administered the empire during CK's times were Shihi Hutag, Hui mergen, Chinga Chingsan, Tatatunga etc. Yelui Chutsai was just called in because he was a kidanian and stuff about northern China. Later of course he rose to prominence, but then got imprisoned and killed.

I don't believe you have any idea what mongols and chinese look like. You'll probably have difficulty telling the difference between a kazakh and a filipino. bet you couldn't tell where all the participants came from until they announced it. Stop trying to glue yourself to us, it's pathetic.

And they did map China genetically and it turned out chinese are 99% chinese. The result is surprising even to me, looks like centuries of nomadic incursions left but a tiny trace. You can see the map here on this forum.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2004 at 19:30
Originally posted by Chono

And they did map China genetically and it turned out chinese are 99% chinese. The result is surprising even to me, looks like centuries of nomadic incursions left but a tiny trace. You can see the map here on this forum.



The question is though...what is Chinese?  Even the Han race is very diluted and mixed around...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2004 at 11:44

"So what? He didn't kill because of ethnicity, creed, religion, he killed only those that opposed him. Mass killings, yes, but on his terms they 'deserved it'. Those slaughtered cities had the chance to surrender. Maybe not all of them, but from what I know, most. "

 

Whats the difference between killing those that are in your way because they don't want to be enslaved vs. those that are killed because of an ideal, in Hitler's eyes the Jews deserve to die too. Imperial Japanese slaughtered many people
also because they are just in their way, and they also offered surrender to many cities and chinese prefects.

 

"You are judging him by modern standards. "

 

Even by standard of his time, it was brutal, Jin and Song armies never decide to exterminate a whole kingdom like he did. There certain things that are not affected by time. just because there is no law, does it make murdering a right thing to do?

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2004 at 23:09
Chono
I respect you for your knowledge, may I make a simple request, I am not as gifted as you are in history , and I would appreciate if you would not use harsh words on me.
If I were to pick on your weaknesses and use harsh words
on you, how would you feel?
We are all learning, my wife by the way was quite hurt by
your statements about her previously. She , like you, is a Mongol, so why do you have to be so rude?
Try to learn from CK and not be rude, crude and arrogant.

Clive
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2004 at 00:16
"Try to learn from CK and not be rude, crude and arrogant."

All respectable words Clive...but some how I doubt CK was not rude, crude, and arrogant.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2004 at 00:10
One thing for sure, CK gave many people many chances.
This can be testified by many historical books, and documents. It is these people who abuse them and try to be vindictive , which made Ck does thing he normally doesnt want to do.
The sad thing, is many people in this world, including some people in this forum, claim they respect and pay homage to CK, but actually act more like the small little people who abuse the chances and graces CK gave them.

Clive
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2004 at 00:15
Originally posted by cliveersknell

One thing for sure, CK gave many people many chances.
This can be testified by many historical books, and documents. It is these people who abuse them and try to be vindictive , which made Ck does thing he normally doesnt want to do.
The sad thing, is many people in this world, including some people in this forum, claim they respect and pay homage to CK, but actually act more like the small little people who abuse the chances and graces CK gave them.

Clive


Hehe...sorry but I didn't understand a thing you wrote, but it sure sounded nice. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2004 at 15:10
"You are judging him by modern standards. "

On a site with an almost complete overview of all wars, tyrants, atrocities, etc. in history, this is a part of the FAQ (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/war-faq.htm#judge):

Q: Is it fair to judge the past by the moral standards of today?

A: Sure. Why not?

Sometime the curses of posterity are the only punishments that a monster from history will ever get. Stalin died peacefully in his sleep, beloved and mourned by a nation. Are we going to let him get away with that?

Also, if the purpose of studying history is to avoid past mistakes, then we have to decide what those mistakes were. That means passing judgement. Did Augustus bring tyranny or stability to the Roman world? Do states' rights allow oppressive local governments to flourish, or prevent the rise of federal tyranny?

And if we want to promote heroic role models, we first have to find someone we admire. That too requires that we judge the past. I for one am not going to promote posthumous veneration for someone I'm glad we're rid of.

One other thing I've noticed is that "the moral standards of today" are not always a recent invention. To say that slaveholders of the 1800's can't be held morally accountable ignores the fact that huge segments of the population were already opposed to slavery at that time. If we argue that the massacre of civilians was an accepted aspect of medieval warfare ("Everybody did it"), then we slander the various saints and holy men that spoke against it, and the occasional general who showed mercy to his captives. After all, aren't you including them in the "everybody" who did it?


I pretty much agree with this. In order to learn from history, you have to look at the mistakes made in the past. So judging mass-murderers from the past by the moral standards of today is fine. It should learn us there should never be anyone like CK again.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2004 at 16:09

of course it's possible to judge ancient people by modern standards, that is if you just want to judge everything.

judging ancients is stupid, it distorts our preception and udnerstandign of history. to study and udnerstand history you have to interprete facts neutral and without illogical feeligns like "he was evil" or anythign like that...only makling statements like "Chinggis was a mass-murderer" may be true by modern standarts but it's of little or none historical relevance.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2004 at 15:00

Originally posted by cliveersknell

Chono
I respect you for your knowledge, may I make a simple request, I am not as gifted as you are in history , and I would appreciate if you would not use harsh words on me.
If I were to pick on your weaknesses and use harsh words
on you, how would you feel?
We are all learning, my wife by the way was quite hurt by
your statements about her previously. She , like you, is a Mongol, so why do you have to be so rude?
Try to learn from CK and not be rude, crude and arrogant.

Clive

Oh my, you are so cultivated and sensible are you not. I think I'm too crude to respond adequately to such a sophisticated turn of events. So I'll close my mouth about it and expect you do the same, otherwise, the crudeness will of course go on, I might even call you a piece of bullpie  Apologies to your wife, I hope she'd read some history on her native tongue, that'll heal her of the damage done by communist propaganda.

Judging history makes the whole point of studying it rather useless. It takes away any sort of learning value from it. Otherwise, why are we to learn from inherently evil happenings? What can we learn from something that's been already stamped as evil? The point is already clear and there's no reason to learn from it.

One more question is, what gives us any moral right to judge anyone? We're not even clear about our own morality, which in it's turn is the intellectual product of the very people we're trying to judge. This is rediculous. Studying and understanding the judgements of some contemporary individuals is a wholly different thing, they had the right to do that. We must try to understand why things happened the way they did, and learn from THAT.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2004 at 21:59

"Apologies to your wife, I hope she'd read some history on her native tongue, that'll heal her of the damage done by communist propaganda."

 

Perhaps she already done so, and chose otherwise. Too bad the virtue which requires to be ever guarded is scarcely worth the sentinel!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2004 at 01:54
Don't bud in pseudo-manchu, not your business what mongols read.
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